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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty re: sweet talking nonsense

Post  Shelby on Fri May 28, 2010 2:23 pm

The socialists always have a sweet tongue, and nasty bite.

(this is in response to Ray's post at end of prior page of this thread)

I have a more concrete definition of socialism as presented in this thread, and a very concrete mathematical surety of its outcome (as summarized in the first sentence of this post).

As for Ray's prediction of the absense of fast change ahead, I expect there will soon be proof that he is wrong (if riots in Iceland and Greece are not enough proof already).

I mean only an idiot could look at the chart which shows that the govt has grown from 3% to 70 or 90% of GDP since 1903, to realize that there is no balance around a reasonable level for socialism. Socialism demands complete failure. (idiot is a strong word, but I mean really, how could anyone look at 70 - 90% of the economy being the govt and say that is anything but failure and the economic antithesis of freedom?)

Reading Ray's prior missive, I see nearly exact quotes from Marx.

Ray apologies for mis-stating that you are psychiatrist. I am happy to read that you are not. Nevertheless, there is some overlap between pyschology and pyschiatry, and that is enough for me, especially when you state that I am insane.

I find it very poignant that Ray is unable to define the differences between UK's socialistic system and Russia's. Actually they are exactly the same, taking from those who work, and giving to those who don't work. In short, collective theft.

wescal, I am not trying to say that I condone what happened at Waco. Why were those people idolizing a man and joining a cult (alllegedly allowing their children to be sexually abused by him)? The Bible is clear about the 2nd commandment. So although I don't condone what happened, the Bible is clear that there will be repurcussions for violating the 10 commandments. We reap what we sow. If those woman and children had been dispersed in their family homes, there is no way the govt could have done that if each of their families was armed. In other words, the Waco sect was a socialist (collective) action. Socialism always ends in complete failture (drill that simple rule into the brain and use it over and over to make correct decisions). Any way, it is a horrible situation all around, and I am by no means saying I condone what the govt did. Those who participated will also have repurcussions.

=======
Ray does not understand what freedom is. Freedom is the non-existence of collective action, rules, laws, etc. It is as simple as that. Socialists try to confuse the definitions, to try to get people to be confused about what freedom is. That is it mathematically. Period. End of story. If you want to expand on that, God gave us all the rules we need in the biblical law, that contains 10 simple rules. God told us in 1 Samuel 8 that he liberated us from slavery and that we would return to slavery if we choose to have a government.

What the USA govt does in Iraq is not freedom, because in freedom, there wouldn't be a govt.

There is no denying the math that UK is now bankrupt because of their socialism. UK won't be so nice of a place to be soon Ray.

And yes, many of us are leaving the USA, because the socialism has become very evident. Some may be blinded still, and not yet notice that UK is more socialist than the USA. I suspect some of them want to escape the TSA and other visible violations of human rights in USA, but they might not yet notice all those hidden cameras on every lampost and not realize what they will be used for in the future...

Ray you can change politicians a zillion times, and it won't change the fact that UK is being drained of all wealth by the banksters who own your politicians. Go look at the statistics on what % of the GDP the govt consumes and how bankrupt the UK is:

I reasonably sure that the UK was profiting off of the slave trade.

Be clear, that I detest the concept of nations. I am not defending USA, rather I am railing against socialism every where (and it is every where).

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Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 4:54 pm

".....Ray does not understand what freedom is. Freedom is the non-existence of collective action, rules, laws, etc. It is as simple as that....."

Ray does understand, but does not accept YOUR version. Ray also understands what is tautology. 'The expression, 'the same' means identical in every respect. The word 'exactly' therefore is superfluous.

The political system in Russia has changed since the 'Wall' came down and it opened its arms to the US version of 'democracy' (another highly misused word). It now wanders in the wilderness trying to find an identity.

But neither before, nor since, has it been the 'same' as in the UK. The UK has a long history of stable, government. This has been one of the benefits it taught and passed on to its colonies, most of which have retained this quality. They are among the world's most stable today even though they are no longer part of an Empire, and are self governed.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty Diversionary tactics

Post  Shelby on Fri May 28, 2010 5:03 pm

Nevertheless, you have not refuted my statement that socialism is "steal from those who work, and give to those who do not work".

Stealing from each other is not freedom. Thus I repeat, you do not know what freedom is.

I think many Americans got more from their Christian heritage and the native Americans, than they got from England. The legal system is corrupted, which is probably the main thing we inherited from you bloaks.

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Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 5:20 pm

There is no denying the math that UK is now bankrupt because of their socialism. UK won't be so nice of a place to be soon Ray.


The UK, and the USA and most, if not all, other nations have been bankrupt for centuries. They are owned and operated by their creditors. Their elected governments act as 'agents', for the owners.

Simple. Nothing complicated to uderstand. When, so called, democratic governments change and appear to present a different policy, it is merely the owners trying a different tack - the same way that when sailing one must change tack according to prevailing conditions.

What we are going through now, or in the past, is only complicated, and puzzling, if you try to see it differently. Which, for some reason, most people are bent to do.


Nevertheless, you have not refuted my statement that socialism is "steal from those who work, and give to those who do not work.


I refute your whole skewed philosophy. It is too time consuming to deal with everything. But if you like, I will oblige here by saying I TOTALLY refute that statement. And your last paragraph
is too ridiculous for words.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty refute means provide some logical basis

Post  Shelby on Fri May 28, 2010 6:01 pm

What all of these bankrupt countries have in common is they steal from people who work and give to those who do not work. In some cases it is done via "tax", which takes several forms, including the hidden inflation tax. In other cases, the theft from the savers (workers) is done by manipulation of the interest rates too low (by the manipulation of the gold price and using Communist China as a battering ram with a fixed Yuan peg slavery buyer of USTreasuries)

You have not been able to refute this fact. This is socialism by definition. And as predicted by entropy, they are all bankrupt because of it.

And you argue that we should continue this system? You champion its virtues? Are you a lunatic?

"ridiculous" is not a valid point in debate.

Ray just give up. You won't win this debate.

It seems you are resigned to slavery? You've thrown in the surrender towel to the "creditors"? Do you not understand the exponential function Ray? Do you not understand that humans can create more prosperity in a few years now than was created in all of human history? The world could cast away these creditors in a heartbeat, if not for people who want socialism.

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Post  R N on Fri May 28, 2010 7:29 pm

It would be an act of folly to even consider attempting to apply a logical refute to an illogical statement.

I have used up my quota of folly in even gracing this blog with my views of the reality, as opposed to your ramblings.

My views are based on historical research past and present, supported by what exists, not on some interpretation of the enigmatic, book of Revelations ( as in open to many interpretations) that can suit anyone suffering from religious mania in his attempt to support his wild efforts to extract himself from the proverbial hole he has dug himself into.

I am happy to let your other readers judge accordingly. If they agree with you, well let them follow your lead. They go with my blessings, as you do. There is room for all kinds in our world. I am tolerant.

As I have mentioned, there actually exists a 'Flat Earth Society (In the US, naturally)

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty Again you try to bend what I wrote

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 3:29 am

I have written many times that my assertions are based on math and logic. Go back for example, to my very succinct definition of socialism and capital. And I have added the correlations to the Bible as additional sugar, that can be discarded without any harm to my points.

You have not even identified an illogical statement.

And as expected, you are unable to refute my math nor my logic nor the historical record (i.e. growth of govt from 3% to 70+% of GDP since 1903, failure of rome, failure of USSR, failure of Communist China, etc).

You have lost the debate, because socialism is a failure. This has been proven numeous times in the history of the world. And you claim to have studied history.

Ray I have been trying to understand how a person who is reasonably intelligient as yourself (although clearly not super intelligient), can ignore the historical record of socialism. It seems you think (correctly) that socialism is a fact of this world, and thus you have decided it is more practical to learn to live with it (perhaps you view me as impractical or in denial of reality, i.e. your repeated misassociation of me with "flat earth" theories). You seem to be in awe of the power of the failure of socialism (you think the creditors are in control, whereas it is proveably false, because they can not stop their ultimate failure at the end). You seem to have invented fantasies about different government systems, that socialism is not socialism by ignoring my succinct definition of it (in spite of the record of its failure, given your admission that all the nations with big governments are bankrupt, only the developing nations with small govt as % of GDP are not bankrupt).

I have stated that there is no way for me to propose to stop socialism. I have stated the best is for me to invest in the expectation of its exponential growth and ultimate implosion. Remember that life is fractal. There will be many shorter duration socialisms superimposed on longer wavelength (duration) socialism waves. I think i can not begin to have this discussion with you, because I think I am correct that you do not have formal training in higher math? If you do, then I can lift the discussion to a purely mathematical one, and maybe we can make some progress in your understanding.

=========
I hope you have not gotten hung up on tangential discussion that is irrelevant to the main point of this debate and thread. For example, your assertion that Americans got more from England than from the natives and Christianity. That is really not relevant to our debate. Perhaps you should visit the rural (outside the cities) southern states, and then you will probably learn that what I wrote is true. I did not write "all or majority", I wrote "many".

As with all oppressive systems, the outer facade may appear to be dictated by the central power, but the reality is much different on the ground in the daily life of the subjects.

Besides, USA had migration and influences from many European countries, not just England. I have observed this UK arrogance towards USA numerous times in my life. It is good thing you guys don't visit the hinterlands spouting that, you might get a nice beating in some of the more hardcore "redneck" areas (I am not condoning violence, I am just suggesting don't try to test your assertion that my logic about "many" is illogical).


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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty Amazing

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 3:53 am

What is really unfathomable to me is how someone who has a functioning brain stem, can support socialist systems?

Is it flat out denial of the historical record and mathematical certainty of the failure of collective action? Or it is some kind of fantasy? Or is it the inability to understand where collective action leads every time? Or is it a resignation to having to live within what one is comfortable with? I suppose it is the latter, with droppings of the former three in order to coax the emotions and brain along. Not just you Ray, I have observed many people suffer from this mental condition. It seems westerners really are in love with their modern conveniences (including credit) and they are incapable of visualizing them without a government (or with a much smaller govt as % of GDP).

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty I should...

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 4:11 am

..take this opportunity to learn more how a socialist's mind works.

Ray would you be willing to share with me (and readers), the virtues of the system you live in and how you think it will benefit you for the rest of your life? Does it give you some assurances?

If you want to end the debate, and just move to a discovery period where we try to learn as much as we can about what drives the mentality of socialism, then that would be fruitful in my opinion. May help to identify some things that help both of our understandings in our respective philosophies.

You may have similar question for me?

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty Science of happiness may apply here...

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 5:23 am

Found this interesting and potentially relevant to our discussion:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke20100508a.htm

Fed Chairman Bernanke wrote:beyond the level where basic needs such as food and shelter are met, people don't report being any happier. For example, although today most Americans surveyed will tell you they are happy with their lives, the fraction of those who say that they are happy is not any higher than it was 40 years ago, when average incomes in the United States were considerably lower and few could even imagine developments like mobile phones or the Internet. Second, he found that--again, once you get above a basic sustenance level--on average, people in rich countries don't report being all that much happier than people in lower-income countries. The finding that people in rich countries don't report much greater happiness than those in lower-income countries--even though, in any given country, the rich say they are happier than the poor do--is called the Easterlin paradox

Bernanke thinks happiness can be fine-tuned by statistical central management:

Fed Chairman Bernanke wrote:One application of this insight--and this is just an example of the type of research connected with the "economics of happiness" that may bear policy insights--involved a program in Canada in which recipients of employment insurance or income assistance were offered jobs in community development and opportunities to develop a social network.14 Being unemployed is stressful, not just because of loss of income but also because of feelings of loss of control and diminished self-worth. But individuals who participated in these opportunities reported higher satisfaction than those who did not. Further study could shed light on the effectiveness of alternative approaches to traditional unemployment insurance programs.

More generally, economic policymakers should pay attention to family and community cohesion. All else equal, good economic policies should encourage and support stable families and promote civic engagement. And to help people feel in control of their own destinies, policies should respect the autonomy of individuals, families, and communities to make their own decisions whenever possible, as research has confirmed the intuitive notion that individual freedoms contribute to life satisfaction.

Amazing to me that Bernanke can deny the findings of research, which show that individual freedoms are paramount to happiness. Seems he believes it may be possible to statistically engineer freedom by central economic planners. But then that means even with his 1600 SAT IQ, he does not understand the mathematical fact that any centrally engineered system can never be as free as one where all the actors make their own spontaneous decisions. It can be proven from the equation of entropy or it can be reasoned from the common sense of the delay in the feedback loop between measurement, policy enactment, and results.

And this is always the failure in the thinking of these elitests. They do not comprehend the basic law of nature- ENTROPY.

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Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 5:45 am

. It is good thing you guys don't visit the hinterlands spouting that, you might get a nice beating in some of the more hardcore "redneck" areas (I am not condoning violence, I am just suggesting don't try to test your assertion that my logic about "many" is illogical).


First, lets get one thing VERY clear. I have probably seen, and even worked, in more areas of the US than you, and certainly all Americans with whom I have had contact - they have said so when we have conversed.

That is East and West coasts and four corners right up to the borders.

I have certainly also seen more of the world, as Americans have a very low take of passports.

GOT THAT!

I lived and worked in the US for a total of around 10 years.

I am more conversant with US history, than most Americans. One young American girl was so surprised at what I told her about affairs, and military engagements by Americans with the Indians that she informed her teacher the following day.

She had been particularly aroused by my account of the 'battle of wounded knee'. She could not believe they would massacre the Indians like that.

Her teacher had to admit that this was so, and was surprised she knew so much detail.

I have visited many US historical sites - including Gettysburg,
Little Big Horn, Saratoga, Valley Forge.

(I have also seen Omaha Beach, and Okinawa battle areas)

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty So have I Ray

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 5:48 am

I hope you aware of the Trail of Tears... (as the Rothchilds and Morgans said, "by conquest or by...", they will use any means to attain their greed, even inciting war and genocide)

Any way, I have also lived in communities in USA where my family were the only white people.

I have traveled by car in nearly every state in the southern half.

I have also travel by bus and later by my own car, down through Mexico, Guatemala. Columbia. Philippines, Hawaii. I have been in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Australia. I was high in the mountains in Guatemala living with a family with no floor, where the dogs would eat my warm shit as soon as it hit the ground on a frigid night. I was in Chiapas in 1993, just before the uprising in Mexico. Etc......

I attended 10 different schools before graduating high school.

In summers around age 7 or so, I visited my relatives in hilly outback of alabama, where they didn't even have electricity yet. I was born in 1965.

I did the tour of Virginia, WA DC area also at the 1776 bicentineal....

I failed to correct one of your prior gross errors. The USA was not owned by creditors for "centuries", as we were on a gold & silver money standard until 1900s and savers were very prosperous:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16212.html

Any way, tell me your key insight from those travels?

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Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 6:19 am

Incidentally, the early British settlers built up a very good relationship with the native Indians,

The problems only started to emerge when the French enlisted some tribes to help them when they were backing the colonists in the hope that they could oust the Brits, or English as they were referred to at the time, irrespective of whether they were Welsh or Scots.

After the establishment of th US the problems came as they began to treat, and brand, Indians as sub human. They also stole their food and their lands. Administrators consistanly cheated them with lies - hence the phrase - Paleface speak with forked tongue (little has changed with politicians)

It is said that the word 'Yankee' comes from the early Indian corrupt proninciatoion of English ('yankleesh').

Pocahontas is buried near here, just along the river Thames, at Gravesend.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty Yes and same in Philippines...

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 6:24 am

Natives were tricked into signing over their acres of land for a mirror, and tricked by shell games and other ways...

Socialism is the not solution that restore fairness. If you are so concerned and interested in human rights, then why you do promote the Marx creed that "to each according to his need, from each according to his ability". It is nearly what you wrote in a prior post. Stealing from those who work, is not the way to restore ethics and fairness.

Yes the first Pilgrims would have not survived the winter without the indian advice and aid. They taught them to plant a fish with their corn, etc.. That is what the Thanksgiving holiday is supposed to be about (recently I think Americans may have forgotten).

Ray you will discover that I am person who wants the utmost fairness-- the right of people to keep what they work for.


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Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 6:38 am

I failed to correct one of your prior gross errors. The USA was not owned by creditors for "centuries", as we were on a gold & silver money standard until 1900s and savers were very prosperous:

But who owned the gold? Who financed the revolution? Britain was in the hands of its 'creditors' when the US was still a colony. The whole revolution had nothing to do with taxes and tea parties. It was part of the 'International Bankers' to establish full control of what they saw as the real 'Promised Land' (for them).

A hundred years later the US was put further into the hands of its creditors by a costly civil war. Why do you think Lincoln was assassinated?

Wake up Shelby.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty re: continual progression, but bankruptcy proveably was not yet in 1930

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 6:57 am

R N wrote:
I failed to correct one of your prior gross errors. The USA was not owned by creditors for "centuries", as we were on a gold & silver money standard until 1900s and savers were very prosperous:

But who owned the gold? Who financed the revolution? Britain was in the hands of its 'creditors' when the US was still a colony. The whole revolution had nothing to do with taxes and tea parties. It was part of the 'International Bankers' to establish full control of what they saw as the real 'Promised Land' (for them).

A hundred years later the US was put further into the hands of its creditors by a costly civil war. Why do you think Lincoln was assassinated?

Wake up Shelby.

I agree with the concept that there is has a been a continual theft, and transfer of the gold, from the people to the bankster, as they were able to instill their credit system in the USA. Andrew Jackson beat them back down for a little while, then as you say, they used the civil war to get the upper hand again.

Remember that the New World was financing Europe, not the other way around. All that new gold, silver, and other raw materials...

But the fact remains that those who saved in 1800s were 33,900% more profitable than those in the 1900s:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16212.html

And the other fact remains that (as documented by Howard Katz) from 1929 to 1933 before FDR confiscated the gold and took the country off of a circulating gold standard, that Americans were eating more butter and gaining more prosperity during the start of the Great Depression. The reason is because they were holding gold.

Of course after 1934, the americans no longer owned the gold at all and were set on inflationary spiral of bankruptcy. It actually got started in 1913 with the enactment of the Fed, and yes you are correct to point to those earlier events as laying the foundation, including the expansion of credit by the private banks in the 1800s.

People love usury. Usury demands socialism, because usury is guaranteed failure. I have shown that mathematically.

Nevertheless, the bankruptcy point wasn't fully realized in effect (in terms of the elites ability to impoverish the SAVERS at will) until 1934. After 1934, SAVERS were crushed.

You don't need to keep saying "Wake up". I am very aware of the power the banksters have that began centuries ago. I am talking in terms of actual turning points of significance. 33,900% for savers is a big difference between 1800s and 1900s. Can you refute that number?

It is important that we establish that, because we are at another big turning point now. You may be under-estimating the significance of what is about to happen now?

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty I am attacking you?

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 7:09 am

I think I am. Because I am trying to label you as a socialist. And you have tried to label me as insane and other remarks.

I don't like to attack someone. My feeling and sense is that you support govt theft via the various means of taxation. You support a social care system. Etc.

Well if so, then you are trying to steal from me. So of course, I will hate you.

People are very charitable when you don't steal from them.

We don't need govt stealing from us and giving it to the banksters instead.

Mankind is so enormously productive with current technology, if we could just cast away the bankster socialism system, we would all have 100 times more than we have now. The elite are currently siphoning off 99+% of all of our productivity, most lost through waste (destruction of capital!), and the rest as incideous wealth transfer to them.

I am a reasonable person. I want the utmost fairness and to stop losing our productivity to the bankster mismanagement. Refer back to my post of Bernanke's myopia in the Science of Happiness.

Bernanke 1600 SAT, but apparently an utter idiot with his hands on the cockpit controls. I remember a few like him in my high school. Eggheads, but no common sense. The elite probably selected him because he is smart enough to do effectively what they want done and he is enamored with the love of what he does, but lacking the common sense to understand the implications of what he is doing and thus of no threat to the elite.

I wish I could talk to Bernanke privately. I would be very interested to see how he could counter my logic.


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Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 7:19 am

Nevertheless, the bankruptcy point wasn't fully realized in effect (in terms of the elites ability to impoverish the SAVERS at will) until 1934. After 1934, SAVERS were crushed
.

When something actually happens, or exists, and when it is 'fully realised' are constantly at variance.

This is the whole point of my argument.

Had their power of 'creditor' not existed, they could not have brought in these changes which made things a little more transparent. They always move (exert their power) in stages.

You know the saying 'how do you eat an elephant?' Answer: 'One bite at a time'

As for Katz. I have challenged Howard Katz on more than one occasion. You and he agree on most things. I see where your thinking comes from.

I will send you my last communication to him, which was the other day, where i challenged him last.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty My last response to Howard Katz

Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 7:26 am

"......As Jewish citizens were ostracized from most professions by local rulers, the church and the guilds, they were pushed into marginal occupations considered socially inferior, such as tax and rent collecting and moneylending. Natural tensions between creditors and debtors were added to social, political, religious, and economic strains. ...financial oppression of Jews tended to occur in areas where they were most disliked, and if Jews reacted by concentrating on moneylending to non-Jews, the unpopularity — and so, of course, the pressure — would increase. Thus the Jews became an element in a vicious circle........

I responded as follows


Howard, do not twist history. The mass of Jewish people, and you very well know this, have suffered as the result of being tarnished by the few among them who from biblical times used 'money' trading in various forms, particularly 'lending' to gain advantage and build a power structure that would help further, and protect, them in their nefarious activities.

It was the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Priests) who built a financial empire from 'tithing' the Jewish people, who gave under the belief they were really 'giving to G-d', and further to permitting the Temple to be used by the 'money changers' (for a cut of their take) who short changed the Jewish people in their transactions.

It was this which, one day, enraged an itinerant Jewish rabbi to take physical action against them, throwing them out of the Temple and tipping over their tables of trade.

Two weeks later He had been tried and executed.

Whether there is at least a core of truth in the New Testament or not, there is certainly a core of historical fact. It is the same with the story of Robin Hood, a composite figure based on historical fact of the times - the poor were down trodden, leached upon, many became outlaws. So what's new!


What happened was the Jewish people all got tarred by the same brush. And this has been encouraged by the Elite. Why?Because the Jewish people will then cough up more for protection. And it will huddle them closer together for the same reason.

Some will also find screaming 'discrimination' where none exists brings benefits, as do many people who are seen as 'the wrong colour'.

Now, all Muslims are being portrayed as potential 'terrorists'.

Anti-Semitism has NOTHING to do with religion, nor for the behaviour of the mass of genuine Jewish people of religious faith or true cultural heritage.. (As opposed to those who 'become' Jewish as though they are joining the Masons.

So please Howard, do not twist history to support your views, nor blanket a whole culture by grouping all with - 'The Jews'.
There is as much diversity among Jewish people as with any
culture, or nation.

One of my most enjoyable holidays I spent just recently in Israel. A country which has been maligned by the actions of its government, and a few others.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty bravo!

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 7:55 am

Very good retort. I have also retorted Katz's twisting of the New Testament, and his assertion that Jesus came to spread a lie about love (Jesus said he came with a sword).

Very good point about some of Jews being given positions of power, because they pay up. Pussies (or more accurately they fornicate with the Harlots predicted 1000+ years ago in Revelations).

Many Jews may share some traits due to history of persecution, etc..., but agreed not wise to attribute negative qualities to all Jews. But I would need to study the specific allegations. It is not an area of study that I have focused.

Katz seems to lose logic and get overly commited to his Sadduce Jew status. But on gold itself, he seems to have correct logic.


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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty timeout

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 8:46 am

Ray I have to take a timeout to do some things.

I would like to understand what you are driving at? It seems as though you are saying that the power of the usury system is something we must submit to? And it also seems like you think it is preferable and a good balance? And it seems you don't believe the usury system (the bankster's power that backs the elite echelons) will ultimately fail some decades from now in the final failure of the world after one world is achieved? Rather you think there will be some sort of harmonious balance?

I really trying to understand how you mesh the injustice and increasing waste of capital (that is what bankruptcy means) of the system, with you stated desire that people be free and not enslaved.

You don't see the significance of a 33,900% change? In the 1800s, I could have saved in legal tender at a bank, and become 33,900% more wealthy than if I did the same thing in the 1900s. ( http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16212.html ) Although the evil are always scheming and laying plans, it is the effect that matters.

It is important, because I see their effects are accelerating, and thus their end is coming soon (I think decades only). This I assume you disagree with and specifically why and which aspect?


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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty thought about china

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 9:54 am

How can you hold in high esteem a country (the system and govt, the complicit aspects of the culture, not necessary all of its people) which murdered 100s of millions of its female babies over the past few decades?

We can say the same about the western countries, but at least their abortions didn't cause a structural deficit of females.

I say they are all trash models for the future. A death march. Is that what you want?

Okay i realize China is backing off the 1 child policy and the USA ended slavery, but then followed abortion madness which leaves western world in declining population, no youth to sustain their economies, and thus I repeat A DEATH MARCH for these "modern" societies.

This post is a bit off topic from the main focus on this thread. Focus on my prior post.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty Re: Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Post  R N on Sat May 29, 2010 10:34 am

The pursuit of happiness was enshrined in the constitution as an inalienable right. (I said was, but I think the ink has faded, metaphorically at least) But what does it mean

Happiness is a state of mind, and because the state of individual minds vary considerably there can be no blanket defining of the material conditions necessary
for happiness.

I have witnessed unbridled happiness among people living in the most, to me, appalling conditions.

I also met up recently with a girl from my past. At the time I met her she was the young 17 year old daughter of a Dutch millionaire from Rotterdam. She was on holiday in the Bahamas with her mother, who did not discourage our 'friendship'..

I was even welcomed into their mansion home in Rotterdam when on a visit.

When I saw her lifestyle, real Rembrants on the wall, chauffeur driven car etc., I did not push the friendship further as I felt I could never keep up to that.

I told her this when we met again recently in London. She then told me how unhappy her life had been, and chastised me for my action based on an assumption. On one occasion she said she had tried to commit suicide. she was so unhappy with life.

Her life had not been happy since. She said money does not mean happiness. In fact, she had been 'saved', mentally, by help from her church which she had turned to.

I do believe that 'religion' can bring inner peace and contentment. But this does not have to be Christianity. It is only the clinging to their faith of the imprisoned Taliban that enables them to hold out and endure.

One, only today - a real Taliban captured fighter said that ' the Americans want me to give up my faith, and reject the Koran, but they could tear me to pieces, I would never, could never, do it.

So then what is it. Is there any thread which links all true happiness? Is there a visible outward sign of happiness. Is it measured by a long term trait, or can it be accepted as happiness, if it comes in short bursts?

Why are comedians generally very unhappy people when off stage, and many commit suicide eventually.

Would the world have advanced to the present stage if everyone was in a perpetual state of happiness?

Is it not dissatisfaction, inner restlessness, and desire, even a form of greed, which has brought us great material benefits?

Some of those are, to me, rhetorical.

Without a clear definition of happiness there can be no definitive answer, as in issuing a set of instructions as to how everyone can be happy. Even our sense of humour (what makes us laugh) can vary.

Strange that the humour most universally accepted is the visual kind - as in slapstick, animal antics, or that which is caused my the misfortune happening to someone else - lile slipping on a banana skin, or accidentally walking into a puddle of water you thought was shallow.

Some jokes do not translate, or the themes seen as funny between different cultures.

But then is laughter, a sign of happiness?

Lots to think about, and to question.

My ex wife, with whom I have a good relationship, gave me a small book some time ago called 'Happiness'. It is a booklet of various quotes on happiness. I will close with two of them. Thie first quite humorous by George Burns

"Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, and a good woman -
or a bad woman. It depends on how much happiness you can handle."

But here's one by George Bernard Shaw

" ...........the only way to avoid being miserable is not to have enough leisure to be able to wonder whether you are happy or not...."

Maybe this is why some poor people are not as unhappy with their lot as we think they should be. They are too busy trying to stay alive (to survive) to contemplate on how unhappy they are, could be, or should be.

If you give them something to ease their burden, you are in danger of giving them more leisure time - then the rot sets in.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty So thus entropy is alive and well?

Post  Shelby on Sat May 29, 2010 8:46 pm

Ray your missive on happiness, supports the concept that entropy (possibilities) is (are) always trending to maximum.

This is why a one world centrally managed system (such as Bernanke's fantasy about being able to statistically stimulate happiness by central planning of unemployment aid programs, which I quoted in my prior post https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/economics-f4/is-capitalism-or-is-socialism-increasing-t18-30.htm#3129 ) will fail in the end. It will be like a jail to most people.

I have a vision of end of mass production and the era of individualized production that attain similar economies-of-scale due to computerized manufacturing (think of CNC machines but combine nanotechnology, virtual reality, and other technologies). In this case, the power of the large corporation may vanish, and thus so may the power the elite.

Think of it like this analogy. Before only the corporations and govt could afford mainframe computers, then the PC was invented and look at all the control the mass media and the govt lost since then.

Actually this can cause them to lose control over money, when it goes digital and they no longer control main resources, because millions of people can manufacture little bots to undermine any attempt to monopolize natural resources (how do you stop quadrillions of individualized varied designs of nano-meter sized bots burrowing in the earth and extracting oil, gold, or whatever?). The power of the individual will increase, using only his/her computer and the network connected to the new machinary.

The world is going to change so much technologically, the elite are not going to be able to maintain control.

So now, go back and re-read this thread, and my statements will now make much more sense. You see it is confusing only until you understand what I know. Then it all becomes clear.

Buy gold and silver and hold on for the death of the socialism ( https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/precious-metals-f6/gold-as-an-investment-t60-255.htm#3147 ). Those who believe in freedom will win.

http://investophoria.blogspot.com/2010/05/opportunity-made.html?showComment=1275145052192#c107608523898122075

Andrew wrote:Shelby believes that Satan is actively engaged in designing and delivering the destiny of these elites.

Shelby wrote:No I believe that entropy is trending to maximum.

And I have said buy gold and silver and do not attempt to short these markets, and have given the reasons why.

TPTB will attempt jack liquidity up and down and try to shake the trees to see how many gold and silver owners fall away.

Those who want to survive and prosper with their capital will buy physical and stop the nonsense in this gambling pit. And get on to doing something productive in their life to generate income other than losing all their capital in real terms (relative to price of gold) by gambling.

But if you would rather get back to the gambling, then please do. I will enjoy taking your capital, by simply doing nothing but holding physical gold.

My understanding of entropy enlightens to me that I must expect people to do many different things, and I must respect that their role is not right or wrong, it is just is.

Go forth and thanks for reading my views over the past few weeks.

Shelby wrote:When I wrote "no", I mean that for you to characterize the foundation of my belief to based on Satan, is false. I am founded in math.

Since I see that mathematically the so called "NWO" must fail (if it is ever even attained), and since I can reasonably assume that the centralized control over people is evil (because people like their individualized control and freedom), then I can say that the destiny of those elite who want to own everything is evil and will fail.

But that understanding is not fundamental to what forms my belief system. Which is again, mathematical and specifically the exponential function and entropy that are the fundamental law of nature.

Next time, if you are going to try to summarize someone's belief system, try to read more carefully and be more objective, rather than interject your own belief system. Which is obvious that you detest "religious beliefs", thus you try to mis-frame my beliefs as such.

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Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing? - Page 2 Empty Increased guns lead to less crime

Post  Shelby on Mon May 31, 2010 11:16 am

This is a delayed rebuttal to discussion with Ray on prior page of this thread:

NRA-ILA GRASSROOTS ALERT
Vol. 17, No. 21 05/28/10
FBI Data Again Shows More Guns = Less Crime

Anyone needing proof that fanaticism for gun control hasn't waned on Capitol
Hill, that anti-gunners are -- as Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) put it
last year -- only waiting to "pick the time," should watch the video of
Mexican president Felipe Calderon's speech to Congress last week, versions
of which have been posted on youtube.com
< http://www.ilaalerts.org/UM/T.asp?A1.2.6527.8.4609740 > . When Calderon
asked that the federal "assault weapon" ban be re-imposed, a very large
number of U.S. Representatives and Senators present gave him a standing
ovation.

However, on Monday the FBI released crime statistics
< http://www.ilaalerts.org/UM/T.asp?A1.2.6527.9.4609740 > that should cause
the applauding anti-gunners to sit on their hands. The statistics indicate
that between 2008 and 2009, as gun sales soared, the number of murders in
our country decreased 7.2 percent. That amounts to about an 8.2 percent
decrease in the per capita murder rate, after the increase in our nation's
legal and illegal population is taken into account. And it translates into
about a 10.5 percent decrease in the murder rate between 2004, when the ban
expired, and the end of 2009. And finally, it means that in 2009 our
nation's murder rate fell to a 45-year low.

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