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What Is Money?

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty "Pay in blood" is how socialism finally kills the host LITERALLY

Post  Shelby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:44 am

So now, I have have the 90% understanding of how the financial system will morph, i.e. the USD was not the one world _currency_, and how eventually some decades from now when NWO is complete, we will end up in a "pay in blood" system which is the 666:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/biblical-f3/666-t37.htm#2286

So I think that about wraps it up for me. There shouldn't be any need for me to email you further.

I do hope you take the time to read this one and to follow the links, and learn what I have learned. It is profound. Although I know most of you will not.

This will appear to be bizarre, unless you deeply study and contemplate all the proofs at my above link and sub-links thereof. In the decades forward, I suspect you will recall that I was on to something (or you may entirely forget I told you).

My links above contain some practical advice as well.

I thoroughly expect to be viewed negatively in most of your minds. It is to be expected, as you have not yet gained the wisdom. However, if anyone has any wisdom to share, I welcome your replies. I am reminded to be humble, lest I have no wisdom.

GOD BLESS EVERYONE. HOPE TO SEE YOU ALL ON THE OTHER SIDE.

REMEMBER TRUST IN GOD, IT IS YOUR ONLY CHANCE.


Read Wilkerson's point that gold&silver won't help you:

http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html
http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/gods_plan_to_protect_his_people.pdf
http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/americas_last_call.pdf

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Wilkerson

Post  Yellowcaked on Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:22 am

I don't put much stock in what Wilkerson says...

The real question is what is he and his church doing about the decay of society?

Probably not much, like most churches.

The problem is that most churches have withdrawn from society and happy just in their on little buildings instead of being the salt of the earth.

Apostasy reigns true in the last days...

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty re: Wilkerson

Post  Shelby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:30 am

Yellowcaked wrote:I don't put much stock in what Wilkerson says...

The real question is what is he and his church doing about the decay of society?

Probably not much, ...

Oh my gosh... You do not seem to understand that no one can stop Revelations. I read that Wilkerson is helping many inner city youth and helping us to understand that gold & silver will not help us. Did you not read the scripture I quoted:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/economics-f4/what-is-money-t44-45.htm#2273

Shelby wrote:...Realize that gold bugs are in the church of Laodicea, not in church of Philadephia:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+3&version=NIV

To the Church in Laodicea
14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."...

The point of that scripture is that your gold will not help you. God is saying go ahead and at least buy your gold in fire (i.e. no coins, no graven images), but his point is that you are not ready to enter gates of heaven, unlike the church of Philadephia which are ready (read Revelations 3 entirely).

Yellowcaked wrote:...like most churches.

The problem is that most churches have withdrawn from society and happy just in their on little buildings instead of being the salt of the earth.

Apostasy reigns true in the last days...

Either withdraw or morphed/corrupted into pseudo-temples of Satan, but I do not think that accurately characterizes Wilkerson's astute interpretation of scripture. Irregardless what Wilkerson is doing is of no concern of ours, only we need to judge whether his interpretation of scripture is correct. Like a politician, you seem to judge his views, by judging the person (which is satanic and opposite of biblical principles). Rather I think you are defending your church in Laodicea, because (as I know you personally in email) perhaps idolize your wealth and your role in political society (i.e. you violate 1 Samuel 8)? We can make criticisms of myself also, and I am constantly morphing to try to get myself in the church of Philadephia.


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty "you" might be a soulmate, but I think maybe it is God, "words" are in Bible

Post  Shelby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:17 am

The "you" in this song, Invincible:


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Apostasy

Post  Yellowcaked on Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:20 am

You really don't get it, do you?

I have known for 30 full years that Wilkerson helps inner city youth. You should read "The Cross And The Switchblade" sometime. I did, 30 years ago.

Wilkerson may be a little off the deep end with his "prophecy". No one who knows the Bible needs Wilkerson to tell them the end is coming.

A statement like this:

AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.

is completely and totally irresponsible. It is in complete contradiction to Revelations 12:11. "they loved not their lives unto death..."

No one, that is truly in Christ, is going to worry one bit about the last days that are to come. There is nothing coming that is any worse than millions of Christians have ever faced.

Death does not get any worse, any way you deal the cards.

But that does not also excuse him or any other Christian from being responsible citizens and being agents of change for Christ in government. You might want to look up some scriptures about God's government sometime and see what it is really all about, for once.

See Matthew 25:40. Read the whole chapter while you are at it.

Who cares that the last days are coming? I don't, because I am ready for it. Not because I have wealth, or gold, or silver. They are nothing. I am washed in the blood of the lamb and I fear nothing and certainly not death.

You need to look up the verse that says "...to live is Christ, to die is gain..."

Then get your head on straight on what this is all about for a change.

The so-called Christians can either sit back on their fat asses, like the goats in Matthew 25, and speculate the last days, while the world goes to Hell in a hand-basket...

Or, they can get off their fat asses and start making a difference in society with the gifts that God has given them.

So, are you a sheep or a goat? A Christian, or a fake? Living for yourself, or living for others?

That is where the rubber meets the road for you and everyone in this world.

You are the one to judge yourself while on this Earth, not me.

If Christ is not using you to save the lost then He is not using you at all and you are just fooling your own self and are utterly lost.

If you are not a witness to the lost and a light to salvation, then you are most likely not a Christian.

Acts 1:8


Matthew 25:40

Matthew 25 (New International Version)

Matthew 25

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

The Parable of the Talents

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty You have no point

Post  Shelby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:27 am

Yellowcaked wrote:...No one who knows the Bible needs Wilkerson to tell them the end is coming...

"No one"? Like all 6 billion people already know? Nonsense.

Yellowcaked wrote:...A statement like this:

AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.

is completely and totally irresponsible. It is in complete contradiction to Revelations 12:11. "they loved not their lives unto death..."

No one, that is truly in Christ, is going to worry one bit about the last days that are to come. There is nothing coming that is any worse than millions of Christians have ever faced...

There you are being socialist Mr. Politician again, trying to judge his effect on society. First of all, Wilkerson states in numerous places that Christians will have no fear during this time. His whole point in writing is to alert the non-Christians.

P.S. I don't know if you are judging Wilkerson on something he wrote 30 years ago, people do change. Perhaps your criticism is only on his latest warnings. I am hoping you had changed since last year. I have no interest whatsoever in your bringing that Mr Politician stance over to my forum. I will of course allow it (I do not censor, but I will move posts to on-topic threads), but please move it to Biblical forum (maybe you can entitle it "God's notion of Governance" and I will debate your interpretations there).


Yellowcaked wrote:...Death does not get any worse, any way you deal the cards.

But that does not also excuse him or any other Christian from being responsible citizens and being agents of change for Christ in government. You might want to look up some scriptures about God's government sometime and see what it is really all about, for once...

Maybe you think you are not violating 1 Samuel 8 again. I do not need you to decide what is irresponsible information! I do not need a censorship police nor a government nor politics. I want to come out of the Great Harlot system.

If you want to debate that in Biblical forum, I can, we can go into a correct intrepretation of Romans 13, why God allowed the killing of all the babies in 1 Samuel 15, etc.

Btw, I have read Matthew. That is irrelevant to the points above.

If you want to reply again, please reply with a single link to a new topic you have created in the Biblical forum. Please do not obfuscate (the main point of) the "What is Money?" thread with this line of off-topic discussion.

Yellowcaked wrote:...The so-called Christians can either sit back on their fat asses, like the goats in Matthew 25, and speculate the last days, while the world goes to Hell in a hand-basket...

Or, they can get off their fat asses and start making a difference in society with the gifts that God has given them.

So, are you a sheep or a goat? A Christian, or a fake? Living for yourself, or living for others?

That is where the rubber meets the road for you and everyone in this world...

That is exactly what I am saying. And Wilkerson is saying that too, he saying gold & silver are not going to protect you.

But your concept of "making a difference in society" seems to revolve around judging what other people are doing. Focus on what you are doing. If you find that everything you want to get done revolves around political action (depending on the group), then you will know perhaps why you spend more time talking about things that didn't get done, than actually watching the fruits of your labor virally being adopted by people on their own free will (between them and God as Jesus said in Matthew 6:5) without the FORCE OF LAW OR TAXATION VIA YOUR POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE. The "Holier than thou" (and good goverance will be more holy) attitude is one that really disgusts me, so don't be surprised at the way I reacted to your posts.


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Control Mechanisms

Post  Guest on Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:42 am

Shelby wrote:
"Being dominant in trade and reserve/store-of-value is not what gives the PTB their control at the individual slavery level-- that control comes from the regulation of the currency interest rates (supply and thus feedback loop ripple frequency of demand)."

The BIS gives the stakeholders of that institution control over the Central Banks and through them the international supply of credit, huge influence over interest rates and so on.

The system that was promoted as the new, improved slavery was discussed in the Hazard (could be spelt Hazzard) Circular in 1845. This was a "discussion paper" or "newsletter" of its time. It was circulated between American bankers and their counterparts in Britain and the Continent (AKA Europe). It gave a glowing report on the new system of paying wages as an advancement on actually owning slaves. Please forgive the underlining I am trying to quit gradually.

Marx literally "wrote the book" on the other key control mechanisms of direct taxation etc. Your repeated over-emphasis of the importance of "controlling the money" as a means of enslaving individuals is deeply frustrating. Control of money is in my view a "macro control" and only one of many. I perceive many "micro controls" as well.

Review your own language. So often you talk in terms of "I already said ....", "I wrote about that here....", "I have already shown ....". My perception is you compete rather than co-operate. That's fine provided everyone knows the ground rules and accepts them.

On another thread I remarked that I had never met anyone who was sufficiently gifted to be able to relate the predictions of the bible to current events no matter how deep their faith. So I treat these interpretations as speculation not proof.

If you feel you have accumulated enough knowledge to get on with "your mission in life" I congratulate you and wish you well.

Cheers to all!

PS. I would like to correspond with skylick. If he is interested I would be grateful if you would pass on this invitation and my e-mail address to him.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty re: Control Mechanisms

Post  Shelby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:21 am

angophera wrote:Shelby wrote:
"Being dominant in trade and reserve/store-of-value is not what gives the PTB their control at the individual slavery level-- that control comes from the regulation of the currency interest rates (supply and thus feedback loop ripple frequency of demand)."

The BIS gives the stakeholders of that institution control over the Central Banks and through them the international supply of credit, huge influence over interest rates and so on.

The system that was promoted as the new, improved slavery was discussed in the Hazard (could be spelt Hazzard) Circular in 1845. This was a "discussion paper" or "newsletter" of its time. It was circulated between American bankers and their counterparts in Britain and the Continent (AKA Europe). It gave a glowing report on the new system of paying wages as an advancement on actually owning slaves...

A coordinating institution among central banks (BIS) is not inconsistent with a move towards a one world currency (not just for reserves only). It was also not inconsistent with the fact that the USD became a one world reserve asset (as did the pound sterling before it, and roman gold coins before that perhaps). Nevertheless the BIS does not by itself reach the next level of socialism in its current form. It may morph to be a true central bank of SDRs or the ilk.

And note that wages did not stop socialism, they actually made it easier to implement via taxes.

angophera wrote:Please forgive the underlining I am trying to quit gradually...

Personally I found the limited and prioritized usage to be excellent in this post. It was only a suggestion. I will not censor anyone here.

angophera wrote:...Marx literally "wrote the book" on the other key control mechanisms of direct taxation etc. Your repeated over-emphasis of the importance of "controlling the money" as a means of enslaving individuals is deeply frustrating. Control of money is in my view a "macro control" and only one of many. I perceive many "micro controls" as well...

You said that "control of money" was their primary means and I agreed. Taxation and control of money are symbiotic. The fiat has not control without taxation.

angophera wrote:...Review your own language. So often you talk in terms of "I already said ....", "I wrote about that here....", "I have already shown ....". My perception is you compete rather than co-operate. That's fine provided everyone knows the ground rules and accepts them...

I can not respond to this general accusation. If you have a specific instance, then I will show you how I had already proved the point. But please do not go there. It is pointless. I suggest take some time to meditate. We will not get any further right now (just going in circles trying to explain to you what I have already explained to you). There is a wide gulf between our understanding of the issues at this time.

angophera wrote:...On another thread I remarked that I had never met anyone who was sufficiently gifted to be able to relate the predictions of the bible to current events no matter how deep their faith. So I treat these interpretations as speculation not proof...

I replied to that. Also my logic stands even if the Biblical correlations are removed.

angophera wrote:...If you feel you have accumulated enough knowledge to get on with "your mission in life" I congratulate you and wish you well...

Yes I feel it is time for me to transistion to action. You helped me fine-tune some of my thinking thank you.

I am equally frustrated that you can't connect the dots that I already did, so that we can reach some conclusions and get on with actions. It seems to me, you are going to subscribe to the freegold thesis, and I am going to try to subscribe to the "trust in God, do not store up things on earth, but store up deeds for heaven". I am a person who was not willing to accept that stance, without spending the last 3 years proving to myself in every possible way, that it is a fact of natural law (aka nature or God).

I was impressed with your intellect, so I was a bit shocked to learn that you think socialism will not progress beyond a certain point and that there are factions ready to use gold to stop socialism's advance (which would be their demise since they would be out-of-sync with the trend). It is just amazing to me that you can cling to such a view. I have no idea what is your mathematical or anthropomorphic basis. I suspect maybe you think a great depression will induce a reset of socialism back to capitalism? But my study of history is that is never the case. It is always a transfer of the socialism to another greater structure, which is a new seed that can grow exponentially because it is smaller in proportional to its greater scope (as compared to the narrower socialism paradigm that peaked and died). IN our case now, the USD reserve model is peaking, and what will follow will be a structure of greater scope. Initially that structure will be less well formed, and thus may appear to be less socialistic in certain metrics or perspectives, but in reality it will be (as always in history, due to mankinds insatiable desire for socialism) a march towards greater socialism.

angophera wrote:...PS. I would like to correspond with skylick. If he is interested I would be grateful if you would pass on this invitation and my e-mail address to him.

His website is listed on his posts on Canadian Land in the Health forum. I am suspect he has a contact address on this website. If you can't reach him there, I bet he will post his email here, and then delete his post after you contact him. If all else fails, please ask me again.

Btw, skylick has often been the recipient of people who don't agree with my logic. Perhaps he is my guardian angel.


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Freegold thesis will enable greater socialism

Post  Shelby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:57 am

Okay here is the slamdunk logic:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/precious-metals-f6/gold-as-an-investment-t60-60.htm#2301

I pray you finally understand. But I suspect you won't.


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Maybe it won't take decades

Post  Shelby on Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:56 pm

Someone astutely pointed out to me that even though the USD was not the 666 "pay in blood" final outcome one world currency, that we could get there much faster than "decades". Okay I have to grant that possibility even though I think it is unlikely, I must admit that China probably much further along than I realize. So I guess it is possible that RobRoy is correct, and that we would already be in the Tribulations and maybe one of the Trumphets has already been blowing. It will come like a "thief in the night".

Again God bless everyone, we may not have much time. Get yourself in good with the Lord, while we still can.

I am going to close this thread on this note. Any one want to comment further, please carry on discussion in the Changing World Order thread.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty God's Governance

Post  Shelby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:22 am

yellowcaked has replied to the prior discussion about Wilkerson and governance in general:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/biblical-f3/god-s-governance-t129.htm#2304

I am still closing this thread, but wanted to give readers direction to yellowcaked's response. I will not censor anyone here.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Submitting this article to FinancialSense.com for publishing

Post  Shelby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:23 am

"Pay in Blood" System

Understanding the precise mechanism for the transistion to NWO, is crucial for long-term investing success.

The Euro is the first democratic currency in the history of the world, whose lineage was never redeemable for a fixed quantity of precious metals. Feudal era tally sticks do not qualify as a democracy. Thus, the Euro is the transistion model to the NWO as I will explain.

The USD was a transistion from the historic use of precious metals by the populace (who never fully trusted the Kings of yore) as it was redeemable for a fixed quantity of precious metals, domestically until 1933 and non-domestically until 1971. From 1971, USD has been price fixed to "cheap gold" by and so OPEC can hoard gold by pricing oil in USD, and by massive selling of unbacked gold futures (ETFs, certificates, pool accounts, etc).

The USD was a global store-of-value, but not a global currency (populace use their national currencies), and now the USD is losing its value, as the USD price of precious metals rise. This transistions the world to a new financial model, where the fiat currencies are not reedemable in precious metals at any managed price. Up to now, the various national currencies are merely proxies for the USD, as the reliability of the currencies has been tied to their level of USD reserves. The Euro is the first democratic currency that is not a proxy for any concept (lie or otherwise) of store-of-value.

The new global financial model will be one where currencies are not stores-of-value, but merely transactional and political conveniences. The major coup is that for the first time in history of world, people will trust currencies that have no store-of-value component. They will trust that a free float of currencies against gold will function as a regulator. But this will be a race to "who can debase the most", due to the insatiable march of socialist human nature. Free floating gold as a store-of-value, will provide no brake to grouping of populaces into a plurality of brakeless currencies, because of the Iron Law of Group Politics. Also I have explained, how such a model will force formation of currency blocs.

So if the new model is one of much higher precious metal prices, due to the end of the price-fixing in USD, why not invest in precious metals? The new global financial model is one that accomodates ever greater levels of socialism, and socialists do not like when some people get richer than others. This new model works well for the super rich who can keep their precious metal dealings invisible and above the law, but it does not bode well for average person who wants to deal in precious metals. The method of confiscation will be taxation in the dying economies (90+% income taxes in last Great Depression), and excessive debasement (debt consumerism) in the developing economies, when an investor will capitalize on the investment. The latter works because capital gains taxes on precious metals are calculated on the fiat change in price. There is no place to run and no place to hide for the average investor.

Like any cancer or virus, socialism will kill the host, unless it can spread. The new financial model is on trend, because it enables socialism to spread, because as I have spoken to numerous people in the developing world, most of them desire to have the same BIG government that the dying western economies have. But eventually socialism will run out of low hanging fruit, and that is when it will literally kill its hosts. This will be the "pay in blood" system.

We can not stop human nature, but we can compete. Rather than burying our capital in a hole, why not go out to the 6 billion and teach them through capitalism that there is better way? Why not be pro-active in helping them to not commit the same mistakes we made? This is not a time to hunker down and be more selfish. This is a time to go to the developing countries and be pro-active. This is a call-to-action.

Better human values have to learned economically, because economics is part of what is driving people to idolize the "ordered society, BIG govt, better life" illusion. I have found that the more wealth I have, the more I am contented with a simpler life. That is the key realization we need to teach through experience. Lifting people up economically is part of teaching them they do not need wealth. If we instead remain selfish, we leave the teaching of the 6 billion to socialism. Let's compete for the mindshare brick-by-brick!

Take me Lord and use me, I am yours.

==============
ADD: chose wisely which businesses to undertake.


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty THANK YOU

Post  Shelby on Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:00 am


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty You want to make money or capital?

Post  Shelby on Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:04 am

http://investophoria.blogspot.com/2010/03/lazy-markets-lazy-psychology.html?showComment=1268791321952#c6835471970733313561

Anonymous wrote:Ok ladies it's poll time!
Anyone that has made money through recommendations on this board say "made money".
Anyone who has lost money say "lost money".

Shelby wrote:Define "money"?

Did you mean made dollars? What if you made less dollars than the dollar has lost purchasing power, for example if land in Asia increase by 10% this week and you made 5%? What if you made 3% in dollars but the dollar lost 3% of its purchasing power relative to the Euro?

Truth is no one is making money in the casino. They may get ahead for a while, but like all gamblers, they give it back to the house over time. The interesting thing though is people can not see it, because they think money are digits, but money is what you can actually do with it. Have you tried to anything useful with your money lately? What did you do? Did you create any prosperity for yourself or others, or did you buy more unnecessary junk?

I say the only way to make money, is to create capital. And the only way to create capital, is to create necessary production.

-S

http://investophoria.blogspot.com/2010/03/lazy-markets-lazy-psychology.html?showComment=1268836138388#c1091185918090502195

Shelby wrote:Again how can I answer the question if he doesn't define what money is? For example, if the value of an investment declines in dollars by 3%, but the value of the dollar increases by 5% relative to Euro, gold, and things I want to buy, then I made money, while losing dollars. What you don't seem to understand is that by sitting in dollars and doing nothing, you are making or losing money every day (and I tell you are losing).

The more important thing you don't understand, which is why you are blaming Derek for your own addiction, is that you can not generate capital by gambling. And playing in these markets with short-term technical voodoo is gambling. The big banks know exactly where your stops are statistically, because you all move with another herd and they take a statistical sample of brokers they control, which tells them what your stops and decisions will be before you even make them.

I know you won't understand what I have written. And thus you will lose everything by the time this epoch is over in about a decade or so. Remember I warned you.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Only Gold is Money

Post  Shelby on Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:12 pm

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23903.html

Chris Powell of GATA wrote:...gold's enemies figured out how to increase its supply by vast amounts without going through the trouble of digging it out of the ground. They invented "paper gold"...

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23862.html#comment95969

Shelby wrote:I think it is important I make it clear that gold is different than any other substance on earth in a very specific way. One must understand this in order to understand macro-economics.

Gold has the lowest new stocks relative to existing above ground readily recoverable stocks of any tangible thing on earth (aka stocks-to-flows ratio[1]). Silver is the second lowest.

Above ground gold is about 160,000 tonnes (nearly all of which is held in forms that are readily salable) and annual supply is about 2,500 tonnes, or roughly a 66.6 years of supply thus 1.5% rate of monetary inflation (debasement). Above ground silver in tradable forms is roughly 20 billion oz, and annual supply is about 0.8 billion oz, or roughly a 25 years of supply thus 4% rate of monetary inflation (debasement). Btw, this is why the central banks say they target a low inflation rate (but it is lie).

All the other commodities (including other metals and foods) are consumed such that readily recoverable stocks are not more than about 6 months of supply. This is also why there can't be a global hyperinflation relative to general commodities, because the people would starve themselves within 6 months.

Only gold and silver can not be debased. All other substances on earth (especially paper or digital money) can be overproduced to create artificial inflation and theft by the central bank.

Lately I had an epiphany, and my thesis is that knowledge has a very huge existing stock relative to new supply. As we know (even the Bible says), most knowledge is recycled and not new. Thus I think if knowledge could be made fungible with programmatic referential transparency, then we could replace gold and silver with a form of money that we carry in our mind:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/knowledge-f9/book-ultimate-truth-chapter-6-math-proves-go-forth-multiply-t159-15.htm#3640

That is what I am working on now.


[1] http://www.professorfekete.com/

Steve Saville says essentially what I do above, but he has a different way of articulating it, which some may find more comprehensible:

http://www.kitco.com/ind/saville/nov032010.html


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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Real Bills (loans) are harmful

Post  Shelby on Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:41 am

And analogously saving at interest rates, insurance, and all other forms of futures contracts (promises and surety) are harmful.

Someone recently attempted to distill Real Bills, but missed the key essence of the problem with Real Bills:

http://financialsense.com/contributors/robert-blumen/real-bills-distilled

I will apply my ability to boil complex issues down to their bare, succinct, lucid essence.

Real Bills are short-term credit, wherein the producer of a good has insufficient capital and creates a promise to pay (the "Bill") from proceeds of the good thats will be produced. From this Bill, the producer gets the loan to go produce with. When the goods are ready and sold, then the Bill is paid back with interest.

There are some other details. The Bill is actually sold by the producer to the person who wants to loan the money. The Bill holder will receive all the proceeds of the sale of the goods, thus the producer got his profit up front before the goods were even produced.

Dr. Fekete tries to make a distinction between debt and "value-added", but the distinction is a syntactical strawman, because he also misses key semantic essence of the problem with futures contracts which are always a form of debt (promise to do something):

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/antal-fekete/real-bills-and-gold

The problem (nasty effects) with Real Bills is the same as with any futures contract or insurance:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article21650.html

The problem is that futures contracts create personal failure, macro-economic waste, misallocation (aka overproduction), and ultimately cause socialism to spread. Let me better explain the math. My prior attempts to explain this math were not as lucid as they could be.

The problem with any form of debt is that it allows people to risk other people's capital. The lender is supposed to be compensated for this risk by the interest rate, which is supposed to match the lender's opportunity cost.

However, there are two orthogonal mathematical problems:

1. A higher interest rate to compensate the lender for NPLs due to personal failure of individual producers, does not rescind the RISK-FREE (!) losses in the macro-economy.

2. No interest rate (whether fixed or adjustable) can anticipate and thus compensate for force majeure. Not even adjusting the aggregate interest rate to compensate for the historical rate of force majeure losses can compensate, not even when diversified, as some cases of force majeure impact all sectors.

If even a small percentage of producers fail, regardless whether it be the "normal" failure rate or even some calamity such as periodic bad harvest, the mathematical problems above manifest and spread like a cancer that does not stop until the entire macro-economy becomes intertwined in RISK-FREE socialism. And socialism is not risk-free in the end-- rather it is guaranteed failure in the end, because it enables people to waste their capital and charge it to the aggregate opportunity cost, i.e. interest rate or insurance premiums. Thus, I hope you also realize now that insurance is mathematically analogous to loaning money, in that it causes risk-free waste (misappropriation) of capital, and thus leads to socialism and guaranteed failure.

Dr. Fekete argues that the risk of default for the providers of (probably fractional reserve) capital (i.e. the lenders) is so low, so as to be near enough to zero. This entirely misses the point that the risk-free losses accumulate, regardless how small they are initially and incrementally, until eventually the society itself is on a fractional reserve of savings and the human capital has been wasted over a generation(s). Every society in history rebuilds from a prior destructive socialism wipeout, repeats this same insidious mathematical cancer that leads it back to socialism wipeout again over many generations.

The #1 problem causes RISK-FREE overproduction, because producers are not risking their own capital, but rather risking the capital of all of humanity collectively in the form of higher interest rates. Thus the system does not anneal towards optimum production types and levels, but diverges towards increasing usury as personal RISK-FREE failure begets more personal RISK-FREE failure, because the failed person still has no savings and needs to try again and can try again RISK-FREE (credit ratings don't stop people, because people can try again via proxy, and even with a 666 system of credit, there would be the math problems with a centralized decision, i.e. rating, system).

The #2 problem aggregates losses to society, thus if the losses eventually become too great for the lenders, the problem becomes the government's problem, as what we see now in the western world.

The short-term nature of the Real Bills does not limit such negative effects. Any risk-free failure, whether it happens in the short-term or the long-term, is accumulative in terms of waste of finite capital.

Many people don't understand that money is not capital. Moving money around in risk-free paradigms causes a destruction (waste) of capital. Capital is the human life, and it is finite. In the macro perspective, if each of us waste it, the society gets into a demographic quagmire, i.e. complete failure of the macro-economy. When people are in their child bearing age, and are motivated to delay or not have children, because there is nearly unlimited risk-free opportunity, then the entire society pays the price when that population retires-- having wasted their production years (aka capital) with insufficient youth available to sustain the economy. Look at much of the western world with declining populations, sans immigration. We even have females who think they are men, because they undertook hormone transfiguration (aka birth control pills and IUDs), some even starting as teenagers.

In short, futures contracts, debt, savings at interest, and insurance, are all forms of subsidies, where society steals its own capital from itself.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty People are asymmetrically stupid (math is just way over their heads)

Post  Shelby on Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:15 pm

They can be reasonable intelligient in terms of comprehension or writing or every day skills, but be legally classified as retarded when it comes to slightest bit of math.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23990.html#comment96076

Shelby wrote:Sonny wrote:
"simply demanding fair, equal, and balanced foreign trade"

Sure if you are willing to pay 7 - 10 times more for manufactured goods, then go ahead and demand that.

And then you will be at 3rd world level any way, because your wages certainly can't increase 10 times more and then be 100 times higher than the 3rd world.

Bottom line is that the only trade that nature will allow is the one that lets capital run downhill to the lowest point that needs to be filled. Any attempt to subvert the free market with "balanced" anything, will cause massive poverty.

People do not understand math at all. I suspect most people don't even understand this article I wrote today:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23980.html

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Thomas Paine on paper money

Post  Shelby on Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:12 am

If I am being compared to Thomas Paine, I appreciate that very much, but I am not worthy, because he actually fought for the freedoms we have today. I think about how easy our lives are today, these guys got around on horses, etc. Even our so called "below the poverty line" live higher quality lives than the Kings from the middle ages, if measured by modern conveniences and material consumption.

I wish to critique Thomas Paine's essay, because perhaps we may correct some over-simplifications I will alledge that Paine made which may have given the banksters the wiggle room to deceive people in the intervening time. I am interested to learn about the bankers' intrinsic power and limitations. I guess it was you Jason who first made me aware of the fundamental power, which is that use of debt and usury mathematically forces a fractional reserve (because compounded interest obligations grow to be greater than the quantity of gold+silver on earth).

http://mises.org/daily/2942

if paper can be metamorphosed into gold and silver, or made to answer the same purpose in all cases.

Can anyone point out I am mistaken to say that the bankers have proven that using mass media and the mass desire for debt and usury (aka fractional reserve finance), they can indeed make paper perform the same purposes for century or more? This of course fails, but the failure does not come at the cost of the bankers but at the cost of debt slaves so created by the success of the bankers.

The value of gold and silver is ascertained by the quantity which nature has made in the earth. We cannot make that quantity more or less than it is, and therefore the value being dependent upon the quantity, depends not on man. Man has no share in making gold or silver; all that his labors and ingenuity can accomplish is, to collect it from the mine, refine it for use and give it an impression, or stamp it into coin.

Actually this is not true absolutely (although it is true over a long enough period of time, the ill effects of it not being true always are accumulative towards a Revelation result), the bankers can manipulate the quantity of metal over long enough periods of time so as to destroy entire economies that are using metallic money standard, as they did to China. Would a bimetallic standard solve this weakness?

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/moore070306.html
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/moore031407.html (March 2007)

It has, therefore, all the requisite qualities that money can have, and is a fit material to make money of — and nothing which has not all those properties can be fit for the purpose of money.

Paper, considered as a material whereof to make money, has none of the requisite qualities in it. It is too plentiful, and too easily come at. It can be had anywhere, and for a trifle.

At least up this point in the essay, Paine did not mention that gold+silver are unique from all other commodities in that they have very high above ground investment inventories relative to new mine supply, which make them stable stores of value (notwithstanding the banksters short-term ability to dump supply or buy up supply using their fractional reserve press and political control).

And he apparently fails to articulate what an excellent medium-of-exchange paper is (or digital money if you hate the filthy paper), and how easy it is to make it ubiquitous and thus nearly perfectly fungible.

The only proper use for paper, in the room of money, is to write promissory notes and obligations of payment in specie upon. A piece of paper, thus written and signed, is worth the sum it is given for, if the person who gives it is able to pay it, because in this case, the law will oblige him. But if he is worth nothing, the paper note is worth nothing. The value, therefore, of such a note, is not in the note itself, for that is but paper and promise, but in the man who is obliged to redeem it with gold or silver.

Unfortunately Paine made a critical error, he allowed for the usury and futures contracts which guarantee a fractional reserve money system will ensue. I think Jason had written that we can not outlaw usury. I would like to revisit his logic if I can find that article.

Paper notes given and taken between individuals as a promise of payment is one thing, but paper issued by an assembly as money is another thing. It is like putting an apparition in the place of a man; it vanishes with looking at it, and nothing remains but the air.

I wonder if did not understand that once you allow promissory notes, they will become a medium-of-exchange by natural forces?

One of the evils of paper money is that it turns the whole country into stock jobbers. The precariousness of its value and the uncertainty of its fate continually operate, night and day, to produce this destructive effect. Having no real value in itself it depends for support upon accident, caprice, and party; and as it is the interest of some to depreciate and of others to raise its value, there is a continual invention going on that destroys the morals of the country.

Bravo! Paine apparently agrees with what I wrote recently about the stock market being a casino and when gold was money, stocks were worth nothing more than their dividend yield. The P/E appreciation of stocks (in general, there will be individual exceptions) has been entirely offset by the inflation and the relative return on Treasuries. Read Howard Katz on this issue and see my example with Coca-Cola:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/economics-f4/stocks-vs-precious-metals-vs-bonds-vs-real-estate-t11.htm#17

and the bond of society dissolved

Rather I would say that (debt forces) paper money (which) forces socialism, so the bond becomes one where everyone depends on stealing from each other (themselves). Whereas, gold and silver disallow any such "binding promises". Hommel has refined the knowledge by illuminating the wisdom of the Bible's advice against being surety for others and ganging up together. Specifically that we have to avoid debt otherwise society ends up enslaved to itself, with the banksters leading the way on the harlot horse.

The pretense for paper money has been that there was not a sufficiency of gold and silver. This, so far from being a reason for paper emissions, is a reason against them.

Here is where I think we can add important new knowledge. I think we have (Hommel has) shown mathematically that it is impossible to have compounding interest obligations with growing debt, and not outstrip the supply of gold and silver. This forces a fractional reserve (eventually bank runs and realized losses for depositors). So the point is, that gold and silver can never be SUSTAINED AS money for as long as society wants to employ usury.

Of all the various sorts of base coin, paper money is the basest. It has the least intrinsic value of anything that can be put in the place of gold and silver. A hobnail or a piece of wampum far exceeds it. And there would be more propriety in making those articles a legal tender than to make paper so.

He again I think fails to articulate the slippery slope that anything that has 10 times lower stocks-to-flows ratio than gold+silver, can be manipulated and lead to further debasement, as happened in reality in Rome and in this modern removal of silver from coin, then gradually less and less base metal and finally to digital money. I am thinking that it must be gold+silver and no usury, everything else leads to Revelation result.

and the punishment of a member who should move for such a law ought to be death.

Paine's solution is to propose to kill anyone who tries to fulfill the demand for debt, because there is a mathematical requirement for a fractional reserve system in order for debt to be allowed to grow compounded. Obviously that is a non-solution, because supply always fulfills demand at some price. That is Economics 101. So for as long as the soceity wants usury, then any such proposed law will never be enforceable over time.

The only solution is education (enlightenment). This is why we are preaching the good word here. This is why I am analyzing Paine's essay.

==================

http://seekingalpha.com/article/241152-jp-morgan-and-the-massive-silver-short-the-greatest-story-ever-told?source=email_the_daily_dispatch

shelbymoore3 ... "Real Bills are short-term credit, wherein the producer of a good has insufficient capital and creates a promise to pay (the "Bill") from proceeds of the good thats will be produced. From this Bill, the producer gets the loan to go produce with. When the goods are ready and sold, then the Bill is paid back with interest." (sic)

Sir, in respect ... that's a completely erroneous description of a Real Bill’s operation.

A simple example would be a cobbler who orders leather from a tanner. The tanner 'writes' his Bill for the total charge due in 91 days. The cobbler endorses it as 'accepted'. On receipt, the tanner delivers the leather to the cobbler. Within the 91 days, once the cobbler's goods are sold, he extinguishes the Bill by sending the amount due. No interest is charged.

If, in the interim, the tanner has bought a large load of new raw hides and needs to raise a wage fund for additional workers to process them, he can discount the cobbler's acceptance to a private saver or a banker at the going discount rate in order to raise that fund.

You see, no interest is involved anywhere in the process of conveying the credit ... the Bill is discounted from its face value prorated to the remaining term of maturity. For the saver or banker who prematurely liquidate Bills, their gain is on the discount and by 'rolling' matured funds into an ongoing series of Bills, they compound their returns.

The ‘evil’ of the interest bearing Loan model that ancient Peoples observed, but hadn’t had an economic vernacular to adequately describe, was that interest absorbs circulating money out the community. Their having no similar facility for conveying credit as ‘Real Bills’, they condemned interest for its tendency to impoverish the community by depriving it of its media. That’s why love of money too, was despised, yet great wealth was revered.

So, now you REALLY KNOW what Franklin meant when he said "Neither a lender nor a borrower be, if you should wish to keep youeself free."

Pat Fields, in all due respect, what you have described is mathematically the same as the way I described Real Bills.

Don't make yourself a semantic fool with word games. The "discount" is the interest rate. The is no functional difference from a mathematical analysis.

You have argued that the discount for Real Bills is different in effect from loans at interest, because you say it does not place demands on the real money in economy. We know that gold + silver money systems can NOT support compounded interest rates, because eventually the global aggregate interest payments due every period exceed the quantity of (circulating) gold and silver on earth. You are apparently claiming that Real Bills eliminate this quagmire and thus do not force fractional reserve money.

Just because the Real Bills retire after 91 days, does not mean that the interest (discount) demands do not grow compounded. The Real Bills must be repeated over and over again and must increase in quantity for the economy to grow. What you have is an economy dependent on debt to function, and as the economy grows, the amount of debt needed grows. Eventually the quantity of Real Bills has to exceed the quantity of circulating gold and silver, and then you have fractional reserve economy. Else the economy can not grow further unless there the price of everything is decreased relative to the value of gold (aka deflation). But there is no mechanism in Real Bills to cause deflation, whereas the mechanism is precisely the opposite, it is debasement and fractional reserve directed growth paradigm, as is all debt whether short-term or not.

Your other mistake is that some fraction of each 91 day Real Bills is not retired. There is an aggregate accumulation of risk-free losses in the economy, because some people are spending other people's money. These defaults cascade. Re-read my article again.

Also I critiqued today what Thomas Paine had written about the evils of paper money and he apparently also allowed for Real Bills and debt/usury (which is why we are in the mess we are in today):

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/economics-f4/what-is-money-t44-75.htm#3954

There is only one way to avoid fractional reserve theft systems, and that is to avoid all usury. Period! And that means no Real Bills!

Sorry Pat.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty What is gold's intrinsic value?

Post  Shelby on Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:27 am

Worst article ever from Gary North. North brain-farted on this one.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article26704.html

Shelby wrote:
twisted words

"gold is not a store-of-value"
"gold is valuable thing to store"

Gold stores more value than fiat, when the interest paid on fiat bonds is less than the inflation rate, which over any sufficient period of time, is ALWAYS. Period.

The intrinsic value of gold is that it is not a liability. This means another entity's bankruptcy or prolific debasing can't diminish or eliminate its value. Other commodities (other than silver) are liabilities because they decay and/or their above-ground inventories are too minuscule for liquidity compared to ongoing industrial consumption, thus swings in the business cycle can drastically affect their value.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Hugo Salinas Price nonsense - instead loan silver

Post  Shelby on Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:27 am

Utter nonsense the section "There is only one way to achieve this":

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/salinas060911.html

Silver is not coming back as money because it is not natural to carry around metal in your pocket, when you can more easily carry your money digitally in your iPhone.

Instead I had already explained in prior comments how to bring silver back as money. Loan it at net 0% interest when the silver price peaks in this secular cycle!

For example, if I offered silver loans (re-payable in silver) to 1000s of programmers to start their own programming work in the Copute language, then as the silver price is declining, the market value interest rate they must pay (by IRS guidelines on avoiding the gift tax) is offset by the falling price of silver, so although they pay me back more silver than I loaned (the interest rate), their cost in fiat terms is a net 0% interest rate (because the price of silver has declined, which they buy to repay me).

This will create a demand for silver as store-of-value money. Just forget about creating demand for silver as pocket money (technology eliminated that possibility,sorry Hommel is wrong on that).

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty The manipulation is market-based

Post  Shelby on Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:49 pm

The card counter who gets banned from Vegas because he is too good, doesn't win 100% of the time, he maybe wins 55% of the time and he loses 45% of the time. But that is enough to wipe out the casino over time, if he manages his risk (size) per bet mathematically too.

The charts show the repeating patterns of the manipulation, and thus to the mathematical mind they can add that 5% probability advantage that results in winning more often than losing.

You can't reason about indeterminism with binary logic (if-else). It takes a "fuzzy math" (which is actually a serious math course).

btw, I am not saying I am good enough to win 55% of the time in the silver market.

That is not my strength. I never got banned from a Casino.

I am saying that I see a repeating pattern every few years of letting silver run up about 50% over its 200 DMA. It seems to correct every time it reaches that level.

So those big parabolas are fairly easy to call. But we don't know which one will be the one that never stops going up, and goes to infinity, like all those trees that grew to touch the moon and all those ZERO examples in history of the world of something that went up forever and never came down. And don't say that gold went to infinity in Zimbabwe, because the 100 trillion was not even convertible to anything, instead you had to price your gold in other things like how many virgins it bought.

> I'm not saying you are just your average mind, and I'm all for natural
> cycles.
> But where was the natural cycle when they let silver rise to 50 for
> interminable weeks, when the true natural cycle would have corrected
> long ago. They let it unnaturally and malevolently rise and rise
> almost forever before the slam finally came. Everybody knew it was
> coming sometime, but nobody knew when. If ever there was an abnormal,
> unnatural chart, it is that one. So don't try to argue that it is
> fitting in with anything.
> Nothing was interacting, it was a pure, raw power play. Some assholes
> decided that 50 was their limit. That's it. So you cannot make it
> appear that cycle theory or any other normal/natural ebb and flow has
> something to do with the current silver market.
> Therfore, you can throw your charts out of the window as long the
> manipulation persists, in my opinion.



You don't seem to understand that the manipulation is market-based, in fact, it is demanded by the market. There is no way the quadrillion in derivatives could continue, and inflated lifestyles of a billion
westerners without the futures markets in PMs. And futures markets in money is an oxymoron.

The ebb and flow in the markets is as natural as the other phenomenon in nature, such as the tides. The damn moon is manipulating the oceans, but it can't stop the earth from manipulating the moon, which thus causes the tide cycles.

They are all interacting. That is known as a market. it is given by the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The sun does not manipulate the earth by forcing it to rotate around it due to gravitational forces. This is just the reality of the situation.

> I didn't say it started recently, and of course we are benefitting from it. Anything that is anomalous can be benefitted from one way or another. The point was that it's ridiculous to put much value on charts and technicals when clearly it is the manipulation that
> controls silver, like no other commodity in the world.
>
> At 11:44 PM 8/1/2011, you wrote:
>>Without futures markets in PMs, then the fiat could not be liquid and would not exist since about 1980 or so when they had to start the futures market to give the apparency of liquidity from paper to real money.
>>
>>Thus the developing world would already be wealthy, silver mining would not have been destroyed by decades of low prices, and the big opportunity for us in silver and the big opportunity for us to live in a poor country where we feel rich, would not exist.
>>
>>So it is not easy to compare it, you can't just say the silver
>>manipulation started recently and think it is all bad for you. You and I are benefitting from the silver the manipulation.
>>
>>
>> > Where would silver be without manipulation?
>> >
>> >
>> > At 05:04 AM 7/30/2011, you wrote:
>> >>Jason Hommel did write that article that I called on him to write yesterday about the debt ceiling, and wow it was powerful, and I have
>> a
>> >>lot to add (either link, but 2nd one requires a password):
>> >>
>> >>https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/t9p540-inflation-or-deflation#4484
>> >>
>> >>http://jasonhommelforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=62814#post62814
>> >>
>> >>I show quantitatively the negative marginal-utility-of-debt and
>> explain
>> >>the implications. One of the main points is that if the government
>> would
>> >>reduce spending, the real GDP would actually increase, which the
>> opposite
>> >>of what the mass media is telling us. I show it with charts.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty What is Money, by Peter Ritter

Post  Shelby on Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:04 pm

There are very few people that are not getting screwed by the paper money racketeers or parasites. And it’s always for the same reason. People don't know what money is. And because of that they continue to allow the paper money racketeers to screw them, year in, year out, by letting the racketeers exchange printed paper coupons, called money, for real things. Of course, that way the racketeers will sooner or later own everything.

The sole reason this can happen is because people do not know anymore what money is. It's not worthless paper tickets issued by the government. There is nothing that limits issuance of paper tickets. Forget about honest administrators. In no time that system would be totally corrupted again.

Oxygen and money cannot be compared. Oxygen may be free, as yet, even though the bastards are trying to impose a tax on breathing. But money is not free and should not be free, meaning without intrinsic value.

To understand what money is, we have to go back about 10’000 years. When we were nomads we carried all our possessions with us. No need for money.

When we settled down and started farming, we did something we never had done before. We produced surpluses. Our production was stored, and what was not used for own consumption, the surplus, was bartered for the surpluses of others. Those surpluses were the first primitive money. It was very specific kind of money, because it could only be used for "buying" things from those who were interested in our kind of surplus.

The next step was the introduction of various commodities as money, from salt to shells to tobacco leaves, etc. Many commodities were tried in the history of mankind. Most of them had some deficiencies and were replaced. Finally, the world settled on gold and silver, because that was the best our planet had to offer. Gold and silver are not perfect, but they are the most suitable as money among all commodities. Maybe one day we'll hit on something better. Until then, gold and silver are it.

The introduction of universally acceptable money greatly improved the earlier specific, limited barter. Money created the market, widened it, allowed the division of labor, specialization and progress, right up to where we are today.

The character of money has never changed. It always was and still is surplus production, that which you produce minus your own consumption. Whether you barter that surplus, or change it into a universally acceptable medium of exchange, i.e. sell it for gold or silver, does not alter the character of money. Money is always surplus production, never paper that governments or banks print. Knowing that, governments or banks have absolutely no business being involved with the production or printing of paper coupons called money. Anybody who does that is a parasite living off the labor of others. And only suckers allow themselves to be exploited that way.

The ancients would never have exchanged their hard earned surpluses for pieces of printed paper. They were not stupid. But today we are. We have precisely allowed a certain class of parasite to print paper coupons, call them money and exchange them for real things like land, buildings, shares, commodities, gold, anything. They can print as many coupons as they want. No wonder these parasites own almost everything today. Anybody with an exclusive monopoly to print paper money could do that. They regard themselves as good business people. They are not, they are just racketeers, counterfeiters, criminals of the highest order, protected by governments. If they had to produce something that the market wants, i.e. sell their surplus production, whatever they make, they wouldn’t have all those paper coupons to throw around and own the world.

Trouble is the parasites have printed so many coupons that the world is full of them. Almost all of them are debt, and the debt has grown so huge that it is impossible to ever be repaid on par. If all debt was repaid today, there would be no more money in circulation or in accounts, yet the remaining debt would still be huge. The only way our financial system can continue to exist is by printing massive amounts of new paper coupons to roll over old debt. All that accomplishes is to make the total debt larger and not solve the problem. They call it kicking the can down the road. But, we cannot cure the problem of too much debt with more debt. It would be the same as pouring more alcohol down the throat of a drunk.

The debt has grown to such gigantic proportions that not even interest on old loans can be paid back anymore, let alone the principal. The crash of the financial system is unavoidable and will happen, for the simple reason that there are too many worthless paper tickets masquerading as money. All of them owe some interest. There is no easy cure for this debt problem, and the politicians keep kicking the can down the road, delaying the disaster until it finally and inevitably blows.

The financial crash will render worthless everything that is denominated in paper. Only real things will retain value, and the royalty of real things are gold and silver, for the simple reason that they are the most liquid, i.e. universally accepted. Even central bankers acknowledge that. Sadly, it will take this financial crash for people to relearn what money is and what is not, and how to value it. It will take this painful lesson for people to never again allow a sleazy gang of parasites to print paper coupons, call them money and use them as if they WERE money. They are not.

Quite simple, actually, this money thing, when one looks at it this way.

Peter J. Ritter
8-2-11

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Please learn the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

Post  Shelby on Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:49 am

...
(5) A new sound, well designed and managed fiat system once put into place, together with the transparency afforded by current technology and the internet, could most likely never again be ruined by the type of corruption we have seen in recent years.

Nonsense. The government needs to get out of monopoly money business and let private parties decide what money is to them. In the 1800s, we had numerous depressions as private banks failed due to their fraud of fractional reserve lending, but the corrections were frequent and thus mild. In short a self-correcting system.

Now with this centralized legal tender, we don't get a depression for 80 years, then we end up as slaves and horrible crisis.

Centralized things don't scale and they don't anneal.

Decentralized things do.

Meaning many small things competing are what stops corruption and failure from becoming a monopoly.

Go to http://Copute.com and read the section:

Skeptical?
| Higher-Level
| | Degrees-of-Freedom
| | | Physics of Work

So that you can learn the way nature works.

If a government can't handle as simple an arrangement as that, I'm not sure what it could be capable of handling.

Wow it is so difficult for people to understand a simple law of physics.

They can't, because centralized things are always the hotspot for corruption, because you have conflicting interests of a large population (a lack of degrees-of-freedom because there is only one decision at the center), all of which have a least common denominator, SPEND MORE.

Again I urge you to learn why the law of physics makes this unavoidable.



I suggest you read the section "Physics of Work" on my site. Then you will understand why a centralized government is always evil and going towards failure. It is due to the laws of physics. Maybe you can understand if you read that section very carefully.

http://Copute.com

Skeptical?
| Higher-Level
| | Degrees-of-Freedom
| | | Physics of Work
| | | | Fitness
| | | | Efficiency of Work
| | | | Knowledge

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Future of Money

Post  Shelby on Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:15 pm

...I've illustrated this by adding it to my dialogue in the above post, which I've now posted as a YouTube video: Decentralized Barter a Tower of Babel? (It has a surprise ending).

Oh yes I agree. I have written many times that gold and silver will not be coming back as currency, only as stores-of-value. Both are different aspects of money.

Instead we will end up with a digital currency in our smartphone, and this currency will be set by a world organization. It will probably have some initial token amount of hard-asset backing, but this will fall over time, just as it did for the dollar.

And no the USA won't be printing its own currency, because no one will ever trust the USA again. The world organization will be printing the currency (or some system of semi-autonomous regional blocs), and actually borrowing it into existence from the world bankers.

I wish it wasn't so, but it is the reality of the political outcome of unemployment in a dying industrial age.


P.S. Copute is among other goals, an attempt to make knowledge a currency in its captive market of computer programs. :wink: Realize that computer programs are heading towards 100% of the economy, as manufacturing and food production is heading towards robots and thus 0% profit margins. You see, the old (industrial age) system is dying, and the nation-state along with it. The individual is rising, as a knowledge node in a network. The great thing about knowledge as a currency, is we hold it in our brains, it can't be stolen, because each person is unique and can't be emulated by an automatic generative algorithm.

P.S.S. I have stated it would be better (more adaptive, with more freedom and degrees-of-freedom) for us to have competing money systems from private parties, than to have one managed by the government. You have made the point in your video that private parties can fail, and that government only fails when the entire society does. This is indeed the attraction of socialism, and that is why money (and physical order/world) is dying. As the Bible says, we will throw our money into the streets and it won't save you from the death of the physical (industrial) world. You see the creative soul is the only immortal thing, because it doesn't have mass. This is why the Bible tells us to go forth and multiply, because each new soul is unique and independent, and thus is in harmony with increasing entropy.

It would be better to have decentralized money, but we can't get there with physical money. And digital money carries some risk, and people hate risk. But knowledge carries no risk of theft. Even if you use my knowledge without compensating me, I can use your knowledge without compensating you, but we both need each other's continuing knowledge to fix bugs and add improvements. Thus we have no incentive to not compensate each other for our knowledge exchange. Thus copyright and patent enforcement falls away as an unnecessary parasite.

http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-responds-to-perry-fed-smackdown/comment-page-1/#comment-2666141

shm says:
August 17, 2011 at 5:26 pm

@11bsoldier, there is a gun under every blade of grass in the USA, no enemy could dare set foot on our soil without being annihilated.

It doesn’t help for us to be the global police, when we prop up communist regimes (i.e. China) that use a mercantile policy to bleed the world of productivity (including bleeding their own people, as China has for example 50 sq.ft. of office space for every living Chinese, including babies and elderly, i.e. wasted resources on a massive scale).

As for the ICBM nuclear threat, we have sufficient ICBMs to annihilate any country stupid enough to hurl one over the ocean at us.

There is simply no logic whatsoever in your posts. You have the IQ of a snail.

shm says:
August 17, 2011 at 5:38 pm

I do not disagree with the ideas of Ron Paul’s message.

What I have tried in vain to teach the readers of infowars, is that by throwing your support to a centralized method of achieving those ideas, you are actually unwittingly giving your support to the NWO. I know it difficult for people to understand this, and they think their only hope is to fight at center (the national government) and thus they think their only hope is Ron Paul. This is what TPTB want you to do. I explained this in great detail in many comments on the following prior article:
http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-wins-historic-vote-total-in-ames-straw-poll

Or just Google it, “Ron Paul Wins Historic Vote Total In Ames Straw Poll”

I urge all here to go read those comments.

shm says:
August 17, 2011 at 5:56 pm

On the page I linked in my above comment, I provided the real solution in 3 steps. Basically it involves organizing at the community level, and realizing that you county Sheriff is elected by you. And he has the authority under our Constitution to tell the Feds that they have no jurisdiction in your county. And he has the authority to deputize all your gun owners as posse and he can call you up to arrest the Feds and put them in county jail, if they harrass people in the county. For example, if the TSA touches your body without your persmission, or the DOT comes on to private farmland to require driver's licences, etc.. But the key is you need to move to counties that are low enough in population that you can organize, such as was explained recently by Sheriff Mack.

Also you need to understand what is actually happening to the future. The industrial age is dying. China is operating on negative profit margins. No one will ever again make a profit on factories. What makes a profit is the knowledge added, i.e. the design, the software. So this is creating a global unemployment problem of massive proportions, because the people have tried to huddle together in socialism to guarantee their future.

The only way to win this, is to come out of that dying system, and become independent and nimble and intelligent. Every second that you waste on trying to fix what is dying, is destroying your capital, which is your ingenuity, youth, mental energy, etc.. Specifically you need to apply that energy to productive endeavors that the government can't tax and can't regulate. This is why it is so important for you to organize on a community level and cut out the national government from your pie.

If you instead waste your effort trying to perfect the national pie, there are at least 100 million people who will forever be too stupid to get it, and they will weigh you down and make you fail.

If you don't get this, then you are part of the 100+ million who will stay stuck in the morass and fail with it.

It your choice. Don't be stupid.

lkcarp says:
August 17, 2011 at 6:10 pm

Your opinion holds a lot of weight with me. I have lost countless nights of sleep trying to figure a way to organize and fix this gigantic MESS! There is no way to do it on a large scale because 100+ million will keep down and we will not get anywhere! You are very right! Thanks! I will try and sleep some tonight!!

shm says:
August 17, 2011 at 6:21 pm

The future is knowledge will be money. The physical world is becoming less important (e.g. you still need to eat, but you will never make a profit there, just grow a garden for health reasons not for profit). That is why I am working on a radical new computer language, which makes it easier to trade knowledge (the future economy, because software runs everything from toasters to marketing). But I am not here to sell my work. I am here to encourage you to realize that your strength is in this order of priority:

1. Yourself with God, as Jesus said in Matthew 6:5, don’t go church, pray in your private room.

2. With your family and your local community. That means face-to-face. It means living in the real world, not in your virtual TV world, expresso coffee addiction, and all other forms of addictive behavior that avoid reality.

TPTB want you to focus on centralized efforts, where they can divide-and-conquer you. They want to break the bond between you and God (nature). They wrote down their plans in the late 1800s, you can Google it:

“The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion”

Focus on your knowledge and your community knowledge. And organize where you have the strength and can give the middle finger to the Feds and to all those idiots who don’t get it. Let them crash and burn, it is their destiny.

@ lkcarp, I don't have time to keep coming here at infowars and teaching this. Hopefully sufficient number of your infowarriors can read my past comments, and start to teach that truth. You need me to be focused on my decentralizing technology work. You don't want to waste me, by having me here posting comments. So please, I want to see some of you step up and learn how to teach this truth. I care about you. I even care about those who are going to destroy themselves by staying focused on the center (national government). And the best we can do to help them all, is to lead by example. They can then learn to follow, when they are jealous of our success.

@integrated, yes!

@11bsoldier, Jesus's point is that when we go in the building of an organized religion, we typically do it for social reasons, and thus the only reward we will receive is the social benefit. When we pray in lonesome, then we are very clear to ourself, that we are doing it because of a love of God (or love of natural, if you prefer). Organized religions have given Christianity a bad reputation, e.g. the Inquisition and burning people on the stake. They are the realm of Satan. In the Bible, the "church" is the all the people who believe, but no where does it say the Christians should organize into houses of a social nature. Satan wants people to get confused and mix "synagogue" (building of organized religion) with Christianity, but the former is Satan's realm and the latter is the oneness with God (nature if you prefer).

P.S. one of the requirements of loving nature, is to accept that we can never promise the future and thus we can't protect against every possible outcome. Humans want to bond together (from our pack mentality) because of our fear of what can happen to us. We should love the unknown, not run from it towards Satan who promises the surety of guaranteed failure. I could explain mathematically why insurance is guaranteed failure.

What happens to many liberals is they say they want to love nature, but they actually hate nature. Satan is always playing these mind games in our heads. For example, I have explained that those who are so fanatical about Ron Paul, are actually loving the NWO direction.

That is why it takes prayer alone in your room (or out in the isolated place), so that one can concentrate and get all these false dichotomies out of one's head.

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What Is Money? - Page 3 Empty Government's money power will die (Revelation). Knowledge will win

Post  Shelby on Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:31 am

Martin Armstrong explains that money is a trusted metric, and has nothing to do with a tangible asset:

http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Rise%20and%20Fall%20of%20the%20Euro%2008-21-2011.pdf

So I fail to understand this TANGIBLE nonsense when you cannot point to any period in history where such utopia existed where MONEY never rises or falls in VALUE regardless of what it is regarded to be.

ALL MONEY IS REALLY A SIMPLE DERIVATIVE of the core system that remains BARTER at all times underlying everything. The BARTER system is imply you want a haircut and you grow potatoes. As long as the barber accepts the potatoes all is good. What happens when he doesn’t want the potato and needs a carrot? You have to find a guy with a carrot who wants a potato. This is where MONEY comes in and becomes a universal virtual object that allows commerce (BARTER) to take place because the barber KNOWS if he accepts the object he can exchange it for the carrot with a third party. The idea that MONEY must be TANGIBLE is antiquated nonsense. That does NOT reduce the VALUE of gold.

Read my prior post, and understand that money is a trusted metric by which an exchange economy functions. Prices contain the information about supply and demand in the economy.

The hard asset and fungible nature of gold are an important leverage against dishonest money systems, but not all people will agree to make gold money, because then mathematically the society can't loan at usury rates (greater than the growth of production).

So money will forever be what can expand at usury rates, because society demands guaranteed ROI, i.e. interest bearing bonds.

What I want to emphasize is that the government will possibly get competition as knowledge being a form of fungible money, if Copute succeeds. And unlike gold, which can't trade digitally, because you have to hold it, to own it, digital knowledge is not something the government can suppress.

So we are entering a new era in the history of money, if I am correct. The government's money power will die (Revelation). Knowledge will win.

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