Is Capitalism or is Socialism increasing?

Shelby Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:49 pm

My theory in this brave new world is "if you can't bolt it down, make sure you can carry it with you":

http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=25121016

(no political discussion please on what SHOULD be, simply on the facts of the subject of WHAT IS HAPPENING)

Peter Forden Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:47 am

Shelby wrote:"... If you can't bolt it down, make sure you can carry it with you"

A valuable idea and a fine introduction to the premises that motivate the creator of this forum.
Thank you, Shelby, for posting that.

Capitalism or Socialism, eh?
Defining terms is always a good place to start.
The definition I use:

. . . Capitalism is what happens when people are left alone.

Socialism is everything else, where people are controlled by other people = governments.
And the problem is, big governments have big bolt cutters.
So what to do?

I keep searching for any areas in the world where Capitalism is thriving, growing, expanding.
Can't find any.
But everywhere I look, social control is increasing by leaps and bounds.
Social control usually by governments, but also by religions and, in some areas, by gangs/warlords.
(Social control by "environmentalism" or "political correctness" fits neatly under the category of religion.)

My response to spreading Socialism is to employ an idea probably familiar to most readers here: the concept of the Perpetual Traveler, "PT".
The PT is strategically prepared to pick up and go, at any time.
As Socialism spreads around the globe, a PT can keep moving to keep ahead of it (as long as there is someplace safe still available).
The tactic of, "make sure you can carry it with you," is a valuable idea-tool for those trying to escape pandemic Socialism.

-- Peter

Shelby Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:59 am

Peter, I concur. I am over in Philippines right now, and got the travel bug in 1991 and never looked back. I think those of us who live/lived outside the western countries, have a perspective that many have no concept of. And I also agree that the 3rd world will no longer be a "safe haven" (hahaha how is that for an oxymoron?) soon as the creep is turning into a stampede away from individual freedom.

But even in the face of that, I have enough hope to keep trying to do business and put myself/silver at risk doing so, because I believe I am only given these talents to help others and if I stop working to make the world a better place then I will lose those talents any ways.

What is the world, if I sell my soul to gain all the gold?

Shelby Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:20 pm

..."Every day brings this nation closer to a Nazi-style totalitarian abyss," writes Hilmar von Campe, now a U.S. citizen...

..."It took me a long time to understand and define the nature of National Socialism," says von Campe. "And, unfortunately, their philosophy continues to flourish under different labels remaining a menace to America and free human society."...

...Von Campe's message is that political freedom and democratic rules alone are not sufficient to govern humanity justly.

"Democratic procedures can be subverted and dishonest politicians are like sand in the gearbox, abundant, everywhere and destructive," he writes. "What I see in America today is people painting their cabins while the ship goes down. Today in America we are witnessing a repeat performance of the tragedy of 1933 when an entire nation let itself be led like a lamb to the Socialist slaughterhouse. This time, the end of freedom is inevitable unless America rises to her mission and destiny."...

Shelby Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:12 pm

http://www.modavox.com/voiceamerica/vepisode.aspx?aid=42011 (listen from 12min forward)

Guest Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:17 am

I suppose this should also be in the Capitalism vs Socialism thread.

From ZeroHedge:
"........ bankrupt Fannie Mae will offer deadbeat housing speculators, aka homeowners who bought at the market peak and now can't pay their mortgage, the option to live in their foreclosed upon home while renting it out on a month-to-month basis from the government. As the WSJ reports, "borrowers-turned-tenants will be able to sign leases of up to 12 months and will pay market rents, which in most cases are lower than the cost of mortgage payments." The catch: Fannie will be able to hold the home as not listed for sale. In essence the shadow inventory of millions of zombie houses will skyrocket overnight,............."

What comes next?
I speculate that if someone begins mapping the pattern of foreclosures offered for sale, foreclosed inventory held off-market and owner-to-renter conversions and the land uses in nearby areas that patterns will emerge over time.

For example:
Perhaps clusters of foreclosures held vacant and off-market could indicate a desire to clear out the remaining owner-occupiers by making neighbourhoods unliveable. These areas could be earmarked for short term redevelopment. Think New Orleans post Katrina where black homeowners were discouraged from repairing their homes so they became increasingly dilapidated.

Cheers!

Shelby Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:46 pm

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16920.html (watch video on the page)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFDBkf4F_hs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnkL2G24rUc

The govts and the destitute masses are going to fight for their survival by banding together internationally. In USA, it is going to be a shooting war between those who want to govt to help them and those who do not. Read more:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/precious-metals-f6/gold-as-an-investment-t60-120.htm#2617

Also China's Yuan peg (centralized control economic model) is starting to peak and devolve:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16878.html

For China to grow, the centralized control has to end. So this tells you that fireworks are on the horizon. We need a technology pressure release valve, that peacefully (and quickly) devolves the govts by individual actions with their finances on the internet:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/precious-metals-f6/how-will-we-physically-trade-gold-silver-at-5000-500-t61-105.htm#2610

The most effective vote (has real impact and teeth) is the one people do with their feet (their finances).

Shelby Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:22 pm

I was responding to someone who was urging urgent collective action to reduce govt spending and stop the disintegration of the west. I wrote...

The point I am trying to make is that a centralized plan is not free will, it is precisely socialism which got us into the problem in the first place.

The math I am talking about, is the math implied by 1 Samuel 8, which is that any people who pool together their plans (have a govt or a king), are GUARANTEED to reach 100% failure. One must understand the 1856 law of thermo, which states that the universe is always trending to maximum disorder (entropy). This is why the exponential function is in everything outcome in nature. Because nature is most efficient when every actor is independent.

In summary, nature routes around any form of collective action. Thus collective action must grow exponentially, because it is against the direction of matter and energy.

Btw, I also derived that infinity is 100% disorder. Did you know the scientific method can not measure anything? Because the Shannon-Nyquist theorem of sampling, says that we need infinite samples in order to construct any signal. Because even 1 less sample than infinity, yields aliasing error and we can never be sure if the aliasing error is a complete opposite result than the actual signal we are trying to measure.

Only a few people in the history of the world have been able to wrap their mind around this concept.

You might want to read why I think Facebook will fail because of the lack of understanding of the above math:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/technology-f8/computers-t112-30.htm#2786

Perhaps people forget the 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Manifesto#10_point_program

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all right of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.

Shelby Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:25 pm

Gary North excellent:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article17705.html

Shelby Sun May 02, 2010 5:13 pm

http://investophoria.blogspot.com/2010/04/minor-top-is-nigh.html?showComment=1272654256443#c6601959047930721738

Shelby wrote:"but the whole world is moving towards increased socialism, so thus one can think of it as 'stronger' in the sense that it will be harmony towards a trend towards a one world govt where the producers are controlled by the parasites. An example of this type of world, is for example in Belgium and some other Germanic EU countries, one is not allowed to be seen working at any location where that person is not registered with the govt to work. There are more govt inspectors to enforce this, than there are workers producing something. Thus everything is incredibly expensive, and individual freedom is curtailed."

Didn't take long to be proven true:

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/95235-democrats-spark-alarm-with-call-for-national-id-card

“Creating a biometric national ID will not only be astronomically expensive, it will usher government into the very center of our lives. Every worker in America will need a government permission slip in order to work.”

As I wrote else where, it is really fascism form of socialism that is taking hold now globally.

R N Sun May 23, 2010 11:17 am

First let me say, there has been a 'New' World Order contunually for milleniums. In other words, it is only 'New' to those who are contemporary at a pivotal point at which a stage is reached where the change has become apparent to the mass through some profound event of an 'effect' which 'affects' them - either positively, or negatively.

In the 'roaring twenties' it was 'positive' and the mood and music reflected this. A few years down the road came the 'Depression' and 'buddy can you spare a dime'. All a continuous march in the 'New' World Order.

Economists and others, talk of 'Cause and Effect'. But it is the 'Affect' of an effect which causes the real concern. For example if US companies had merely opened up extensions of their business in China but maintained their core business in the US and not closed plants and put people out of work, Americans would have had little concern for China.

Their sometimes outcries against Walmart are not because Walmart opened businesses in China (as they have elsewhere even in the UK), but because Walmart are buying from China.

But, if it is wrong to buy from China, or any other country, why should China, or any other nation buy from the US?

People are lashing out because their lives are being AFFECTED, negatively. The same economic EFFECTS are the same for all sections of society, but they hardly 'AFFECT' negatively, the richer classes.

Shelby, you wrote in another Blog - Investophoria

Ray,

That famous Chinese reliability:

http://my350z.com/forum/motorcycles/432373-kymco-super-8-150cc-scooter.html#post7349883

I responded as below

May 23, 2010 1:07 AM
R N said...
I wonder, if all is as you say, Shelby, why all the US companies that relocated in China some years ago, and by so doing, are supposed to be responsible for the collapse of the American economy, have not returned?

It was bad quality workmanship by the US that collapsed their (world's largest) motor industry.

Industry today can move and set up anywhere almost overnight these days.

So why are not these companies fleeing China in droves? I mean, if China is so bad as you say, Shelby.

You see, no matter how cheap you make things, if they do not stand up on a CONSISTANT basis, you will go bust very quickly.

We can pick on any nation's products, and find there are cases of manufacturing error, or poor workmanship, we can highlight. We have seen this quite recently with the recall of a number of models by Toyota.

Stop worrying about China, Shelby, and worry about the backward nation in which you have decided to set up home.

Or, if you love the nation which gave you birth, the US, and you have genuine concern, and want to bring change, you have much to focus on there - even to occupy a lifetime.

It is not only manufacturing which has fled the US, which you say is not profitable. Many service companies have moved to Asia also.

You will hear, in a big way, in the near future, of the Chinese software industry. It is growing from nothing just a few years ago.

I do not inform because I have any axe (or Tomahawk) to grind. I simply know that if I want to not only survive, but make money in this modern world, I have to face its realities, and to not be bigoted.

All nations are being pushed together on this planet. We either live together, or die together. Ignore this, and you are a dinosaur, or Dodo, doomed to extinction.

Shelby Sun May 23, 2010 11:36 pm

My rebuttal is contained within this very lost post:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/economics-f4/inflation-or-deflation-t9-360.htm#2953

China is gaining influence, and my point is it is doing it primarily via enslaving its own people (Yuan peg, lowering interest rates in west, driving western credit bubble) and cutting profit margins.

This is dragging the entire world into socialism.

The elite have used socialism in China to drive it into rest of world.

China will suffer for this (selling its people too cheap as slaves), especially because it is running out-of-time, as its population bubble is going to retire by 2020s.

Ray you suffer from the apparent inability to see the unavoidable counter-forces in nature to the socialism that drives the elite's power. That is not nature as in earthquakes, weather, etc, but nature as in entropy (the 2nd law of thermodynamics which governs everything in the universe).

That is not to say that middle class chinese have not prospered recently, nor that the millions of poor have not been uplifted. I am talking relatively, they have wasted some of the potential, by interferring with the free market with forex controls, capital controls, investment controls, migration controls, far flung oppressive empire spending (e.g. mountain train to Tibet), etc... And this wasted potential is critical, due to the exponential function of nature, every waste or gain is amplified by yearly compounding. Look at the entropy equation for the organization of matter, it is an exponential function. Look at growth and decay rates for all known lifeforms, plant, animal, bacteria, DNA, etc, they are all exponential functions.

http://investophoria.blogspot.com/2010/05/opportunity-made.html?showComment=1274679211749#c1575663423833436510

Shelby wrote:I have never disagreed that developing world's role will grow.

I have disagreed with the notion that China is not going to crash when the western nations do. Remember the USA crashed in the 1930s, even though it was in the position China is in now, and at that time UK/Europe was in position USA is now. The big difference is China is no where near as free market as the USA was in early 1900s. USA did not even have a central bank until 1913.

I would rather place my bets on the free market, and no nation. I know the elite are betting on the death of the nation state.

Shelby wrote:In other words, it is very narrow minded to focus on the nations or the politics. The elite are more free market thinkers, and that is why they gain wealth. They are thinking in terms of the increased economies-of-scale from eliminating or harmonizing the nation-states.

The elite let us have our socialistic (patriotic == socialistic) fantasies about magical kingdoms...while they prepare to take all because they follow the free market...

R N Mon May 24, 2010 6:28 am

You use this word 'socialism' so often and in a way that it appears responsible for all the world's ills. You do not make it clear what this 'socialism' is, in your interpretation.

You also attack China, vehemently, and continually, as being a primary cause, even overshadowing what has been the failings of the system going on in the US and what those behind that nation have been promoting to the world - that is, follow OUR way and you will prosper.

So, once again I ask you, what should the world, China, whomever, do to make a world according to Shelby?

At leas give us a summary.

Shelby Mon May 24, 2010 10:27 am

Ray,

I had defined socialism in a previous post of mine.

I think I had covered those issues already but perhaps spread across many disjointed posts. I had not placed exclusive blame on China, giving heavy doses of blame to masses of all countries. Any way, let me try to summarize my analysis of situation for you, and clarify my definition of socialism.

Socialism is the redistribution of capital from individual decisions to central managers.

The above is more succint and precise way of stating the following:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Capital is not money:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital

Financial capital is any form of wealth capable of being employed in the production of more wealth.

One could have a lot of money, but very little capital, if that money is worthless in terms of producing more wealth. Which is precisely the situation of the fiat system now, and as soon as it becomes known, a stampede from fiat will ensue, and thus proving fiat is not capital.

Under socialism, the government grows in size until it consumes the entire economy, then the economy dies. In 1903, the federal+state+local govt in USA was only 3% of the economy, now it is 70+% (that was in 2006, now it is probably going towards 90%).

Although China relaxed some controls from their state-run industry era, they also increased the size of the economy being controlled by the central bank, by flowing all export production through a fixed exchange rate and capital control system.

Do you still not understand what socialism is? How it is like an ebola virus, and it will kill the host? And do you not understand that socialism is the same as lowering entropy, which is impossible to be a sustainable trend due to the 2nd law of thermodynamics as stated in 1856, that the entropy of universe is trending to maximum.

R N Mon May 24, 2010 10:56 am

" .....I had defined socialism in a previous post of mine....."

Yes you have. My reason for seeking clarification is two fold. (1) If it is the particular definition you gave of which I am thinking, it did not make much sense. (2) Also so many of your comments contradict each other. I could, if you wish, point some of these out to you but going back over past posts, and then relating them, is a laborious business.

So, I thought it would be better if you gave a simple, focused, explanation of how you could see the basic changes that could be made to remedy what you feel are the problems you see are responsible.

Please consider, that any such remedy will have to be convincing in that should some other system that you will suggest will hold, accepting human nature for what it is. (No brain transplants)

You see, there are many well intentioned people go into politics, or any form of leadership with a genuine desire to bring 'World Peace' or whatever other ideological dream they have. But once in the position either because of the system, or the human weakness to feather ones nest when they see the opportunity, they forget their ideals.

Or do you feel, as sometimes you seemed to say, that we do not need a government?
If so do you feel we mortals can govern ourselves? Nah! I must have misread that, surely ?

Shelby Mon May 24, 2010 11:04 am

Did you read my prior post entirely? Perhaps I was still adding to it, while you were replying.

The only remedy to socialism is to let it grow until it peaks and then watch it die and implode every time.

I have stated many times that even if there were no elite, there would be other elite to take their place and fulfill the sin of human nature.

Those who survive the socialism, are those who bet against it. You are betting the socialism will win. I am betting no. You will be correct for some time (maybe even your whole life), but I will be correct eventually (and you may lose your life and your after life by losing your bet).

Jesus had a very simple wisdom about the remedy.

"Render unto Caesar what is his, and render unto God what is his".

I will not whorEship (whore) myself to Harlot (socialism) system, but I will give to it what is its own property so that it can reach its destination of total failure.

Why choose between the lesser of 2 evils? If I only had a snake and a leech as choices to mate with, I think I would choose not to mate.

Shelby Tue May 25, 2010 11:57 am

R N wrote:
Shelby wrote:In other words, it is very narrow minded to focus on the nations or the politics. The elite are more free market thinkers, and that is why they gain wealth. They are thinking in terms of the increased economies-of-scale from eliminating or harmonizing the nation-states.

The elite let us have our socialistic (patriotic == socialistic) fantasies about magical kingdoms...while they prepare to take all because they follow the free market...

You argue against yourself. You have me totally confused.

Ray,

The elite understand that counter-trends to entropy grow exponentially before they collapse. Thus they try to be on the right side of that trade both on the way and the way down, and let the masses take the wrong side of the trade, because a human is incapable of comprehending the exponential function.

Eventually the elite can not grow any wealthier because they own the socialism and can't exit the trade, because there is no capital remaining that they don't own. At that point, their jig is finished, and the ebola virus has consumed and killed the host.

The elite are correct in so many facets, except for the wisdom that no one can hold and aggregate wealth forever. (go back to the definition of socialism & capital I provided, to have one manager of all capital is no longer capital, it is worthless and dead)

Whereas I have the view that I should help the masses. I should aggregate wealth and let it disperse again to help others. I think millions of people are wiser than I could ever be in terms of the net outcome of their many varied actions and decisions.

Shelby Tue May 25, 2010 12:12 pm

The elite do as much as they can (buying the media, the govt, etc) to put the masses on the wrong side of the each trade, thus they are going to own the hell they create.

R N Wed May 26, 2010 7:07 am

Shelley,

You are far too confused in your thinking, and reasoning, for me to address any particular point. I mean, where would one start? I thought that at least a little clarity might glimmer through if I asked you to elucidate, but alas.... However, I am not really surprised.

In fact, I am beginning to think that one of your objectives is to confuse. Among other things your over use of terms and phrases not generally used in conversation, and can be, in themselves vague in interpretation.

For example 'entropy' - how often you use this, it is like your white stick of the blind man. (A pretty good analogy)

Let's address one interpretation - how can you measure disorganisation in a system, political, economic, or whatever, if you don't understand the 'system'. The system by which this world is organised. has grown over millenniums and takes many forms, though most definately under one banner.

Like a chameleon it will change its 'colour' to blend with time and circumstance. It is this ability to adapt while not losing sense of purpose which enables it to survive. It learned from nature that the secret of survival, and life itself, is adaptation to the constant change which is part of the life force.

All these 'isms' are merely parts of the whole. While compilers of dictionaries have sought definitions by necessity, one finds that none really encapsulate any individual system past or present.

Sometimes the confusion is intended, as part of deception, but often it comes as a result of the many variables in human behaviour in their practice.

While on the subject of confusion. You certainly had me in that state by telling me, and allowing me, to start my own thread which I did. You even sent me an e-mail to alert me that a contribution had been made to that thread, and presenting me with the link. Then when I go to it, and attempt to respond, I get the message that no such thread exists. That was 'China's increasing influence in the New World Order' . It first let me go to the trouble of composing a response, then wipes it out after rejecting my post.

There is no word from you as to the reason - no explanation.

I even responded to one of your emails to seek an understanding of what was going on, but you did not reply to this.

This is a good example of the perplexities of human behaviour with which we meet, and must contend.

Shelby Wed May 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Ray you are supposed to be confused, because you whoreship the harlot system, described here:

http://www.kitco.com/ind/katz/may252010.html

Some more recommended reading (think re-distribution of wealth, i.e. theft from masses to elite. the ebola virus is destroying the host masses):

http://www.kitco.com/ind/stansberry/may252010.html
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Conner/may262010.html
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Wiegand/mar262010.html
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/saville052510.html
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/amerman052410.html

The elite are liars and interfering with the free market of individual decisions via propoganda. This kind of ebola virus will completely destroy the fiat system as we know it. Of course there will be a new system, and it will be much closer to 100% control by the elite (forced lobotomies for all us Ray, including yourself, etc...I am not exaggerating nor joking):

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/nielson052510.html
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/souleles052410.html (Roubini works for the elite)

The problem with the following analysis, is it fails to understand that there can be no orderly disintegration of the fiat system, because the system is WAY beyond utterly bankrupt with the off balance accounting being hidden from the masses wherein the debt load is north of 1000% of GDP (at some point there will be stampede to gold and silver, but there will be none available):

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/mendez052410.html (wrong analysis)
https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/economics-f4/inflation-or-deflation-t9-375.htm#3096 (1000% debt to GDP ratio)

Never in history of world has a system had any where near 1000% of GDP debt load (the past cases of world failure have been roughly a factor of 10x less, not even the removal of the silver from Roman coin, we have that now globally plus this new financial weapon of $1000 trillion of derivatives).

There is no sense in us debating further, how can I debate someone who is drinking Koolaid. You may survive a little longer in the dying system (it will not die during this death of current fiat system, but some decades later as I previously described with a pseudo-gold standard), because the system will initially see you as a less of threat. But eventually such a system, has to control everyone...

Don't bother to debate me. You won't understand, nor agree.

============
ADD:

Let me clarify it another way for you Ray. The elite are more free market thinkers in terms of the intermediate wrong decisions by the masses (which they help to foster and manipulate). They want to control all the world's capital (not money) and thus on the overall perspective, they are not free market thinkers, and their implosion comes at the very end, once they have consumed all the capital for themselves (control is consumption, they don't understand capital).

The elite have been given this wrong understanding by Satan. I think some of them understand their ultimate fate, but they don't care because that is their destiny.

Even though Hommel has a reasonable point below, because gold is one the most honest measurements of capital, I suspect he does not yet understand the difference between capital and money (this would give him many epiphanies if someone would email him and point this out):

http://silverstockreport.com/2010/stocks.html

I was telling Hommel in 2006 (in his forum, it is all on record) that socialism was increasing whereas he was arguing that it was decreasing because of China and developing world, and he was thus arguing to buy stocks and leverage. He learned the hard way (and myself for trying to see his side and help promote and invest in mining stocks) and is now much more solemn in his analysis. I was also posting in his forum in 2006/7, that the precious metal ETFs were a fraud (when he was arguing they would increase demand for physical and was good) and that retirement accounts were a fraud. Now he has realized I was correct.

Here was my summary about capital and socialism:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/economics-f4/is-capitalism-or-is-socialism-increasing-t18.htm#3091

Hommel wrote:While we are considering historic values, consider what life was like over 105 years ago, in San Francisco, in 1905, on Market Street, well before the Federal Reserve was founded in 1913. Here is a movie that was found, and put on youtube. The freedom on the streets is amazing; no rules of the road, nobody is hurt, people are dodging cars, driving the wrong way, it's just amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NINOxRxze9k

Sounds like the Philippines, although it is changing now as the govt is growing and installing traffic cops and stop lights. This is evidence that socialism is increasing, not decreasing (yet).

R N Thu May 27, 2010 11:54 am

"......Never in history of world has a system had any where near 1000% of GDP debt load (the past cases of world failure have been roughly a factor of 10x less, not even the removal of the silver from Roman coin, we have that now globally plus this new financial weapon of $1000 trillion of derivatives)......"

Shelby,

Have you the imaginative ability to contemplate ' ONE' Trillion dollars, derivatives, or whatever? You mention $1000 trillion of derivatives).

Now that should tell you all of what you need to know. If I or someone had mentioned 5 trillion (or even ONE trillion when we were still grappling with amounts of a billion, and most of us still are) but a few years ago, before trillions were mentioned like millions today, you would have expressed the same suffering of lack of credulity at such an amount.

If I say now that, it could easily be 5000 trillion, you may scoff. These figures have little meaning in mathematics as THEY ONLY EXIST IN VIRTUAL REALITY, as in digitally.

Just one trillion dollars stacked in 1000 bills would be the height of about TWELVE MOUNT EVERESTS. Now that is only ONE TRILLION )and in 1000 dollar bills - stacked flat.

So WHAT IS IT REALLY TELLING YOU/US ????? about who are calling the shots, and their ability to operate outside the shackles of rigid structures which would be imposed if mathematics, and laws of nature ruled. What has not sunk in to the majority is that we are living in a world perfectly suited to TPTB - the world of virtual reality.

I do not think that even they, centuries ago, could have envisaged how well the future would favour them.

At present the greatest use to them of gold is as a PSYCHOLOGICAL tool. Eventually, it will be discarded and preserved even by them only as a reminder of that which brought them victory in the greatest prize of all - ONE WORLD, THEIR DREAM. Of course, the metal will always have its normal commodity value.

As for currency? Eventually it will ALL be digital.

Shelby Thu May 27, 2010 12:45 pm

I agree Ray, even I had written about that before:

https://goldwetrust.forumotion.com/precious-metals-f6/how-will-we-physically-trade-gold-silver-at-5000-500-t61-90.htm#1094
(read the entire page, you will learn more about my views)

However, in the end, this increasing socialistic (go back to my definition) system will collapse, because there is no way a centralized manager can maintain prosperity. The elite want to control all the human capital (not money, as you so wisely allude), and so eventually they will force the humans to be completely controlled by computer, this is what I call the "Pay in Blood" system, the Bible refers to it as "mark of 666 on the palm and forehead".

So eventually their insatiable desire to have complete control, will cause them to kill all the humans. This is what is referred to in the Bible as open sores on those who take the 666, and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The math of entropy is still in force. The big trend of the move to a one world, complete control, will peak and implode, because all 0 entropy systems have no where to go except disintegrate.

It is possible to live outside their system in the meantime, and be more free. Go back to video my prior post, of cars in USA in 1905 driving without rules and laws. But the people were not satisfied, and wanted a govt to make laws and rules for them, and this is exactly what the Bible says in 1 Samuel 8, where it says the people are never satisfied with freedom (maximum entropy), so the people will build their own hell and then perish in it. The math is definitely very much in force.

When I say you "whorEship" the power of the elite or the march to a one world system, what I mean is that you think this is a sustainable power. No it is death march. It will end in complete death. How can I respect that? Remember that one outcome of the equation for entropy, is that small things grow exponentially faster. Example, a kid selling a coke on street corner on a hot day, can double his net worth in one day. So those who resist the one world system, they will see their efforts compounded much faster than the one world system. The one world system will become rigor mortis, similar to how Europe is a dead society as compared to asia (no babies, people don't smile to each other, very low or negative real growth of GDP once debt is subtracted, etc).

R N Thu May 27, 2010 2:06 pm

".......Go back to video my prior post, of cars in USA in 1905 driving without rules and laws...."

It is these sort of statements where you lose credulity to see you as one capable of sound reasoning Shelby. People do not demand controls, rules, and regulations, of any form, unless they see a need to them personally.

Sometimes that 'need' has been pressed upon them by creating, or exaggerating some event that brings about a 'fear' emotion of what will. or could, happen without it. This has been happening a lot recently with, highly suspected, 'false flag' 'terrorist' activity.

When cars first appeared on the roads they were a novelty, and so few. Do you know the first railway carriages were designed like horse drawn coaches. Even though the speed of the early cars were such that you could almost walk as fast, people got knocked down and killed.

In England, not sure about the US. A man had to walk in frint of the car with a flag.

You had to have rules and regulations. Imagine what the roads would be like if you just removed speed limits, and school zones.

How about rules and regulations not just in air traffic control, but in the standards of manufacture and maintenance of aircraft.

Whenever our government reduces police numbers in order to maintain budgets, crime rises.
You see, we not only have to have laws, rules, and regulations, we need the system to enforce them.

Shelby Thu May 27, 2010 4:42 pm

Ray you may want to re-read my prior post, I think I added a paragraph to it after you read it.

R N wrote:".......Go back to video my prior post, of cars in USA in 1905 driving without rules and laws...."

It is these sort of statements where you lose credulity to see you as one capable of sound reasoning Shelby. People do not demand controls, rules, and regulations, of any form, unless they see a need to them personally.

Sometimes that 'need' has been pressed upon them by creating, or exaggerating some event that brings about a 'fear' emotion of what will. or could, happen without it. This has been happening a lot recently with, highly suspected, 'false flag' 'terrorist' activity.

That fear is a demand. People fear chance. They fear maximum entropy (possibilities). They want insurance. They don't want to let God be in control. I have been saying this over and over again for 4 years. Insurance is guaranteed failure.

Very sound reasoning. Mathematical fact, as I have explained in past.

R N wrote:When cars first appeared on the roads they were a novelty, and so few. Do you know the first railway carriages were designed like horse drawn coaches. Even though the speed of the early cars were such that you could almost walk as fast, people got knocked down and killed.

A friend of mine died of a burst appendix last week. Death is natural. It is a gift. God has taken you away to a better place. If you don't believe that, then of course you will want all kinds of rules, laws, insurance, and give power to the elite, by forsaking God. But make no mistake, God is always in control. The entropy will not go to 0 and stay there. I feel pity for you that you whorEship the plans of mice and men.

R N wrote:In England, not sure about the US. A man had to walk in frint of the car with a flag.

Yeah England has always been a morass of laws since the Bank of England got control in 1600s. That is why we escaped from England to America. We didn't have that crap in USA in 1800s, which is why we were 33,900% more prosperous and successful than now:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article16212.html

R N wrote:You had to have rules and regulations. Imagine what the roads would be like if you just removed speed limits, and school zones.

No you don't. We didn't have rules in Philippines up until past few years, and there wasn't a problem. Those who drive like maniacs and don't drive defensively, get killed. Works great to filter out the idiots.

R N wrote:How about rules and regulations not just in air traffic control, but in the standards of manufacture and maintenance of aircraft.

Consumers can dictate the standards for consumer products. They won't buy what is not good quality. Ditto airplanes. Quickly people will learn about those companies who have a higher incidence of crashes.

The free market can handle everything. Rules and regulations are for socialists. They deserve their rigor mortis.

R N wrote:Whenever our government reduces police numbers in order to maintain budgets, crime rises.

So buy a gun. The problem is not enough govt, the problem is not enough private gun ownership. An armed society is a safe society. The idiots get killed and filtered out.

Police are always too late any way, the crime has already been committed by the time they get there.

One little fact that socialists miss is that laws do not change the reality, they attempt to make the reality disappear, but they never work. Only the natural law (10 Commandments) always works. Those who violate it, reap what they sow (i.e. their death if they drive like maniac or do crime in a gun owners society).

Here in Philippines, guns are almost unnecessary, because there is such a high density of people, one could be killed by human hands if they committing crimes. The locals will just beat you with sticks and stones. The filipinos are very loving, and they will only fight when they are drunk or when it is really necessary.

I have a friend who is a native, who can survive on barbecued snakes, lizards, and sweet potatoes. Ray you wouldn't survive 1 week in the jungle. You would be miserable. Westerners are so weak. They are so spoiled, they can't survive in the wilderness any more.

R N wrote:You see, we not only have to have laws, rules, and regulations, we need the system to enforce them.

Yeah you are die hard socialist. You will help to turn this world into one where we need a permit to breath (actually Al Gore is proposing this essentially with carbon tax). Literally you need a permit in some European countries to have a pet, to change job locations, etc..

Al Gore and the global warming scam was totally discredited in the west by the recent expose from hacked emails of the scientists. So now Al Gore is touring to give speeches and sign his photo in Asia to spread his nonsense, because people here are ignorant of the news in west, and they think he is a highly respected member of our society. Gore is totally corrupt. He has investments that will receive favors from the govt when the carbon tax is enacted.

What a wonderful world you socialists create! I will never respect you idiots.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/greek-scramble-physical-brings-gold-price-1700-ounce#comment-376461

Hey UK people, don't you have lampposts anymore or are they all covered with cameras?

R N Thu May 27, 2010 8:42 pm

Totally insane responses of someone who has truly 'lost his marbles'. I view your philosophy as someone trying to convince me that the world is flat, that is - with pity for the state of your mental health.

You verbally attacked the UK and how you see it. You have attacked China on a number of occasions - almost to the point of making it out to be responsible for all America's problems.
This is not something I like to do, but at times it is necessary to bring some balance.

So I point out a few home truths. which you find it convenient to overlook.

America has the most heavily armed civilian population in the world. It has the highest gun crime, and the highest number of its people incarcerated - many of them on death row.

Remove your police force for a couple of days and you would have the civil war all over again with brother killing brother,

Those heavily armed people who pay only lip service to loving freedom stay silent as their fellow Americans who try to stand up against the system are gunned by their government- Ruby Ridge, Waco. Kent State U ( unarmed students on their own campus.)

I say no more......your views read like a sick joke. America only fools its own people, not the rest of the world.

We see the lie of the 'American Dream' it has been a 'dream' built on the nightmare of third world nations and getting the rest of the world to fund that 'dream' by misusing the status of holding the world's reserve currency. This, among other nefarious uses compels all nations to buy oil in dollars. And when a nation which can't hit back with a strong military backed by nuclear weapons it bombs the hell out of it, in a trumped up war kills and maim hundreds of thousands (at least) of innocent Iraqis.

The few Americans who stood against it all, along with mothers of young Americans, who went unarmed to complain, they were not backed by their well armed fellow Americans who stayed home, sat in front of their TV's with their six packs and cheered as their 'brave boys' slaughtered civilians and a known totally inferior military - not even an air force worth mentioning.

So please do not talk about your guns. They are useless without the guts to use them.

The vast majority of British police on the streets are still unarmed, but do not shirk doing their duty. How many American police would go out unarmed. (Rhetorical)

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